Season averages

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by 4284spd

Not knocking the few that race FWD but your effort pales compared to the guy's running real cars! Cry all you want! You don't have the respect of real combo racers! You can be Ken's friends all you want but the 99% don't care!

Ya know Bob, I don't want to de-rail this thread as it's an important subject at this time. BUT just to fill you in, the most difficult part of doing a FWD combo is finding the parts! They don't exist. The pieces that the average Racer takes for granted (gears, trans, converters, cams, headers) aren't there. They need to be sourced from channels rather than the norm. A lot of thought has to go into a FWD combo.
The End.

Now about Ken, if I'm one of "Ken's friends", then he should raise his standards.

[ken robinson]

Billy were not friends you hurt my feeling ...Well if you live in the peoples republic of new jersey you need to have questionable standards... lol ... So when will they release the new HP numbers ???

[4284spd]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Ya know Bob, I don't want to de-rail this thread as it's an important subject at this time. BUT just to fill you in, the most difficult part of doing a FWD combo is finding the parts! They don't exist. The pieces that the average Racer takes for granted (gears, trans, converters, cams, headers) aren't there. They need to be sourced from channels rather than the norm. A lot of thought has to go into a FWD combo.
The End.

Now about Ken, if I'm one of "Ken's friends", then he should raise his standards.

Take a little winter time ribbing. We all have opinions! If you get but hurt on a public forum, drink some tea and relax! LOL

[B Parker]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Now that right there is hilarious! Completely off the mark but hilarious to think "Billy doesn't know"..Bwahahahahaha!!

Dan I've known Billy for the better part of 40 years. I know what he is capable of. He chooses to race the way he does and I don't really have a problem with it. But he's quick to point his finger at other combo's including mine. I like to sometimes point a finger back at him. His combo is as soft as all the rest of them. If I ran my car on his racing budget I would be lucky to run under the index.

At Indy this year 132 Stockers out of 146 went fast enough to get HP if they took Indy as the combo's average. Indy was faster than most years but it's still Indy and by no means was mine shaft air. The index's are soft as all heck and most of us had too play the AHFS game all year not to get hit HP at the end of the year. To me that's sad for what once was a performance based class.

If the AHFS is truly ever going to work for the reasons it was first implemented It needs to have some big changes. I don't see it happening, but I hold out hope that our reps can actually influence those in power to make some changes to help bring performance back into class racing without the fear of those that like to go fast getting their combo's ruined. BP

[Doug Hoven]

I wonder if anyone that had to play "the game" ever stopped to think that maybe they have to play "the game" because their combo is soft... The only thing lowering the indexes is going to do, is widen the gap between those with money, and those without. There are lots of cars, for example, those playing "the game" that, if the indexes were moved .3, can, for example, move their distributor, pull out some oil, un-pin the secondaries on their holley's, etc, and easily gain back .2 if not the full .3, and still be a 1.0 under player. Unfortunately, young racers like me, that can't afford to go to engine builder x,y or z and ask for a 1.2+ second under engine that somehow magically passes tech, would be forced to accept the fact that my .5-.6 under car, is now a .2-.3 under car, and if I somehow found those .3 back, I'm still only a .5 under car. But hey, at least the rich guys with the fast cars could then run their cars all out.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

I wonder if anyone that had to play "the game" ever stopped to think that maybe they have to play "the game" because their combo is soft... The only thing lowering the indexes is going to do, is widen the gap between those with money, and those without. There are lots of cars, for example, those playing "the game" that, if the indexes were moved .3, can, for example, move their distributor, pull out some oil, un-pin the secondaries on their holley's, etc, and easily gain back .2 if not the full .3, and still be a 1.0 under player. Unfortunately, young racers like me, that can't afford to go to engine builder x,y or z and ask for a 1.2+ second under engine that somehow magically passes tech, would be forced to accept the fact that my .5-.6 under car, is now a .2-.3 under car, and if I somehow found those .3 back, I'm still only a .5 under car. But hey, at least the rich guys with the fast cars could then run their cars all out.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, I feel that the argument that you have to be rich to go fast is weak.

[Doug Hoven]

Originally Posted by GUMP

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, I feel that the argument that you have to be rich to go fast is weak.

I understand their is flaw with that statement. There are definitely some combos than can be done and go fast on a budget. However, the amount of fast cars currently being raced that are high dollar definitely outweighs the number of "dime rockets" being raced. I think it is a much more effective solution to give a handful of combinations horsepower rather than pushing the slow guys out of the game.

[Billy Nees]

Wow! Two posts in a row written by two Racers that I have a great deal of respect for (believe-it-or-not!) coming at this from two completely different sides of the discussion/argument!

Barry knows that he has a great combo which has been helped by heads and an intake/carb that, although "legal replacements" are far better than what came on the combo. I can't blame him for picking such a combo to spend his money on and (to his credit) Barry isn't afraid to spend his money in the right places. Now Barry could have built a '70 402/350/330 or a '71 402/300/315 and I doubt very much that he would be wanting the indexes moved .3. Barry knowingly picked the "better" combo and ran with it knowing that he could (more-than-likely) go fast enough to hurt himself.

Doug knows that his combo ain't the best, a '70 350/300/286 but it's what he could afford to "scrounge" together while working part time and going to college. Now Doug could have built a '70 350/250/224 with the carb that never came on a car that NHRA (somehow) made available and I'm pretty sure that he would be wanting the indexes moved .3.

What I'm hoping to make clear here is that NHRA has to come up with a way to expedite(?) satisfying this crusty old poop and this young punk without losing them while at the same time encouraging other Racers to come in or come back to the fold.
They need to react to what they've done to "enhanced" combos and "no-longer- competitive" (yeah, we need Oldsmobiles and Ramblers Too!) combos far quicker and in a "commonsense" way. Even if it means having to talk to Real Racers, not just their buddies.

OBTW NHRA, I'm always available and willing to discuss combos but I've been known to be a bit harsh at times. ;-)

[B Parker]

Billy just to remind you again ( for about the fourth time) I bought my car 4 years ago as an already running Stocker with that engine combo in it for 20 grand. It may not be your cup of tea but for me it was too cheap to pass up. And I had waited long enough at my local junk yards for you to show up and help me find my future Stocker.

Sorry Billy but your idea of what Stockers are left the building long ago and it's not coming back. I had nothing to do with it but I accept it and you should too. Or get professional help.

As you well know it's not just about spending money. I've had to many racers who don't work on their cars nor are willing to spend any money on them tell me their combo aren't very good!! One thing I've learned in 45 years of doing this is you can't make your car faster letting it sit in your trailer from race to race.

I think it's great that Doug was able to build a car on a budget while going to school. But just because he isn't able to run 1.20 under doesn't mean his combo is not able to. It's an easy 1.20 under car with time and money. Not saying he has to spend the money. All you have to do is be able to run the index to win.

I don't think changing the index's is the real problem. The AHFS needs to change so when you do go fast say up until about 1.30 the HP hit is not combo wrecking. The HP percentage for under the index's needs to change.
The .85 under average is a joke to get hit HP. If you didn't think so before Indy should have been eye opening. Bump it to at least 1 under and drop the percentage of HP hits you get all the way up to 1.30 under. The 1970 402 Nova's had to add 130 lbs in weight with just one hit 1.21 under in really good air. For an example. It's now rated 15HP more than the 1970 Camaro's.

You might get some of us racers who still care about the ET performance to put the hammer down. BP






.

[Billy Nees]

Barry, as usual you've missed my point completely.