Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

Doggone it all this digging, I looked at 1961 again:
https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpre...thering-storm/

Another small oops, excusable for a Mopar guy I guess:

The 1961 409 was a single 4v, 360hp.

The top 1962 409 was the Beach Boys "4-speed dual quad positraction 409"
"409 409"
The song actually sings 409/409, inches and HP rating.
The 409/409hp-8v was the 1st DUAL quad 409.

In LATE 62, the 63 service parts (heads & cam IIRC) came out that actually made the 409/409-8v effectively a 409/425hp-8v, even though it kept its 409hp rating.

For 63-64, that same engine became the 409/425hp-8v.

So pretty much every 409 car you saw in 1960s class racing was a 1962 car, with a 409/425hp-8v under the hood (but rated at 1962's 409hp) or a 409/400hp-4v under the hood (but rated at 1962's 380hp)

Not as convoluted as all those Mopar combos (ever count how many 383/330hp engines Mopar had?????) but still complicated.

Of course the Beach Boys song features a real 409 soundtrack.

This is fun stuff, glad the Nostalgia Stock section has some life again.

Ive been advised by Raj Reddy who's a Chevy guru that Nicholson ran the dual quad set up, supplied by Chevrolet, at the 61 Nats..before it was commercially available..... hence it was in OS/S , not S/S.

“Mal - They received the dual quad setup and cam August 1961 prior to Indy ‘61 (placing them in OS/S) . Cars ran single four barrel 360 HP at ‘61 Pomona Winternats.“

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

Ive been advised by Raj Reddy who's a Chevy guru that Nicholson ran the dual quad set up, supplied by Chevrolet, at the 61 Nats..before it was commercially available..... hence it was in OS/S , not S/S.

“Mal - They received the dual quad setup and cam August 1961 prior to Indy ‘61 (placing them in OS/S) . Cars ran single four barrel 360 HP at ‘61 Pomona Winternats.“

NHRA wisely started OS/S for that reason, too many "trunk & parts counter" combos coming out. The 390/401-6v Ford & 421/373-8v Pontiac got the same treatment, bumped into OS/S.

Very few 409s period were made in 1961, about 160 or so IIRC - let alone a dual quad version. Usually on the street it was the 348 Chevy that met the 390 Ford.

Was Nicholson the OS/S R/U at 61 Indy with that car or dont we know?

[Rat Patrol]

Guys, just a side. note. - Don’t think I’m being ‘defensive’......

I was taught to explain my rationale...and fix my errors.

Sometimes my errors become a little overwhelming however...and large posts detailing a lot of ‘issues’ create a lot of workload.

That said, I really appreciate the help...just trust my research and point out the glaring errors 😆

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Pretty sure the Antlocer car had a 4-speed manual trans, therefore couldn't have run in an auto class.

Here's a pic of the '61 that Hayden Proffitt drove @ Indy '61. It has both S/S & OS/S on it. I'm guessing that lots of racers back then referred to lots of classes as "Super Stock", & sorta lumped 'em all together, rather than callin 'em Top Stock & calling each class by it's specific designation. With this in mind, don't know exactly which specific Super Stock class Antlocer was saying he ran.

From my web site.

[oldskool]

"...Is there any chance that Antlocer 61 Bubbletop on pg14 of Boyce maybe was R/U at 1961 Indy & not 1962 Indy?..."

I don't have a clue.

Maybe he was just mistaken about that RU finish.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/200...agstrips-again



I just noticed this pic in the SS book. In the far lane of this 1st pic is the Myrtle Motors '67 Bird. Because of the way the A is written, I first thought it was marked A/SA. But, when I enlarged the pic, it actually looks to be H/SA.

That brings up the question:

Exactly which engine would a '67 Bird have to have, in order to run H/SA, back in the '60's ?

Since I have an old pic of a '67 400 RA Bird marked C/SA, I'd assume it would need to have a 326HO engine, to make H/SA. But, in the pic, the car has a 400 hood on it. Don't think a '67 400 RA Bird ever ran A class.

BUT, I do have at least 1 pic of Truman Fields '68 RA2 Bird marked A/S. But, that was in '72, which was one of the weird pure stock type years. So, I reckin it all depends on what year we are talkin about.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...Is there any chance that Antlocer 61 Bubbletop on pg14 of Boyce maybe was R/U at 1961 Indy & not 1962 Indy?..."

I don't have a clue.

Maybe he was just mistaken about that RU finish.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/200...agstrips-again



I just noticed this pic in the SS book. In the far lane of this 1st pic is the Myrtle Motors '67 Bird. Because of the way the A is written, I first thought it was marked A/SA. But, when I enlarged the pic, it actually looks to be H/SA.

That brings up the question:

Exactly which engine would a '67 Bird have to have, in order to run H/SA, back in the '60's ?

Since I have an old pic of a '67 400 RA Bird marked C/SA, I'd assume it would need to have a 326HO engine, to make H/SA. But, in the pic, the car has a 400 hood on it. Don't think a '67 400 RA Bird ever ran A class.

BUT, I do have at least 1 pic of Truman Fields '68 RA2 Bird marked A/S. But, that was in '72, which was one of the weird pure stock type years. So, I reckin it all depends on what year we are talkin about.

H/SA=
15.00 in 67
11.50 in 68
11.00 in 69
10.50 in 70-71

The 327/285hp 67 Bird has W/P=11.23 with Auto
So I'd guess 1969 H/SA=11.00 class
But then there's the 400 hood:

I dont see how a 67 Bird would fit in A/SA, ever, unless maybe in goofy 1972 when A/SA=9.00 class.
Then a 400 RA1 factored to 360hp would fit, W/P=9.01

Do you know what book/page that picture is from?

[oldskool]

"...Do you know what book/page that picture is from?..."

SS book p.137

Here's a couple more pics from the SS book.

#1 is a '64 GTO which was running in the AHRA F2 B/S class.

#2 is the Royal '66 C/S GTO, which ran the quickest ET in C/S, @ the '66 Winter Nats, but got a DQ because NHRA hadn't OK'd the factory RA set-up.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...Do you know what book/page that picture is from?..."

SS book p.137

Here's a couple more pics from the SS book.

#1 is a '64 GTO which was running in the AHRA F2 B/S class.

#2 is the Royal '66 C/S GTO, which ran the quickest ET in C/S, @ the '66 Winter Nats, but got a DQ because NHRA hadn't OK'd the factory RA set-up.

OK found it, forgot about that color section.
Looks like that picture has to be 1967, the only year that Sox's RO23 car ran in SS/B=7.00-7.69 class.

That means that for the 67 Bird:
A/SA=8.70-9.49 and
H/SA=15.00-15.59 not likely. No 67 Bird even fits in there.

But if the Bird is in A/SA, what does that mean?
3244/325=9.98 unfactored, doesnt fit A/SA=8.70-9.49 class.
3244/360=9.01 if the RA1 was factored to the GTO's 360hp already.

That factoring to 360hp could put a RA1 Bird into A/SA=8.70-9.49 class in 1967.
OK, sounds good.

But it presents another problem:
Tony Knieper ran a 67 Bird RA1 in SS/FA=9.50 at 68 Pomona.
How'd he do THAT then?
Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 car.
A base car fits SS/FA=9.50
3244/325=9.98
But the link below says RA1.
If we use the above logic and factor the RA1 to 360hp then
3244/360=9.01
That bumps the Knieper car from SS/FA=9.50 to SS/EA=8.70 class, but it ran in SS/FA=9.50 class.
So it had to have an NHRA rating of way less than 360hp, like 340hp or less. Would the RA1 Bird be factored to 360hp in 1967, then DOWN to 340hp in 1968, then back UP to 360hp for late 1968? Sounds unlikely.


Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 when it was R/U in SS/FA=9.50 class at 68 Pomona?
Since you're a Pontiac guy, here's the link!

https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/6...holder.144313/

Confusing story. Any ideas?

[oldskool]

"...Any ideas?"

Yeah, I'll take a shot at it.

The 325hp 400 in a '67 Bird could come with, or without Ram Air.

Looks like the RA version has a higher NHRA hp factor. The current factor for SS looks to still be 360hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'd say that if the Stocker was running class A, it was running RA, & the SS Bird was not running RA. Hey, that's my opinion & I'm stickin to it.....unless I find out I'm wrong.

"...Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 when it was R/U in SS/FA=9.50 class at 68 Pomona?..."

All he had to do was plug up the open scoops & run without the RA system.

The lower pic is a close-up of the scoop of the 1st Bird. Looks closed & painted black, to me. The Myrtle Bird is marked SS/EA. Assume it was running RA. OR, it may have just been a different year. No clue.

[DeuceCoupe]

"All he had to do was plug up the open scoops & run without the RA system.

The lower pic is a close-up of the scoop of the 1st Bird. Looks closed & painted black, to me"

Great find on that picture. Not definitive but scoop sure LOOKS blocked.
And that's consistent with the 67 Bird RA1 in A/SA=8.70 class in 1967, and later 68 race year cars that only fit when factored to 360hp.

So I'm concluding:
* The RA1 was factored to the GTO's 360hp from 1967-71 at least.
* Knieper's car, though bought new as a RA1 car, just had the hood blocked when converted to SS/FA and ran at the base 325hp rating (or even the 335hp GTO Base rating, same class either way)