09 Challenger/Mustang engines

[BlueOval Ralph]

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly....

You guy's are off base on DI GM is not using it on any V8s or is it scheduled to be use!! If you doubt what I am saying look into the Corvettes in ALMS they had to remove it from the G2 cars last year not production. Also in the ALMS there was very little power gain with it, but it did help Fuel economy and that was is a big deal in a 24 hour race!!!

Originally Posted by drooze

Im gonna kill 2 posts with 1 stone...(ok post)

RJ and WJ....



Lots of people working on them and several "Old" (2nd Gen guys making the leap for GT) because of favorable ratings etc.

Lots of work being done, lots being shared between certain people, lots being kept quiet by us same guys....

The Engine and EFI systems are where a couple of us who are familiar with the engines hope to shine....maybe we will maybe we wont, in bike(yes all those who dont care) an engine wasnt enough......but a great package never had a pig of a motor either.

I dont have much choice I dont know JACK about Auto trannys , or JACK about drag suspension.....yet....someday I hope to (suspension, forget the tranny Ive resigned myself I understand how it works, and could rebuild one, but not make a performer_so that the only area I do have experience in , are the new hemis.

Several of us are sharing info, dyno results etc across teams who arent in direct competition because of chosen venues divisional regional national etc, we know there will be some overlap and weve all agreed that well shake hands run the piss out of our cars and buy each other a beer afterward.

People who dont know about the engines are seeking the help of those that do.....in drag racing, they trust proven drag engine builders....that makes sense, Stanton is one and there are a couple others, you wont see much drag work coming out of places like HHP or PPP (power ported) they have a market, street pounders.

Its happeneing and the discussions are being held behind the scenes I assure you, not 1 day goes by someone isnt sharing, or Im not sharing info on what weve learned.

I call it our little "Drag Pak Confederation" (I think Im the only one But its true, a loose knit group with their own results being sought, to lend a hand where we can and support each other as we can. Share knowledge none of us could gain all of independent to take what we share as accurate and truthful and return the same. No "curveballs"

We pulled off the build because of knowledge from people like "Mr M", Mike of MPR Race Cars, Doug Duell, Larry, Jerry, and people outside that KNOW the other areas like ATI, TurboAction, TTI, Pete Z, and on and on and on.......I share info back to them on everything I see....sometimes I am wrong, sometimes right.....Mike for example helped me to correct a "Roush" issue just this week.....and it was an issue on build from them......my solution wasnt good, Mike had seen it , I hadnt....now Ill share that with all I know and they with us.

I think if any of the people I am aware of find the "Perfect Recipie" they will share it.....I know I will with them.

But we ALL inside DP world have what we HOPE will be the perfect recipie of "11 herbs and spices"

LOTS going on with the Motors......LOTS being held close to the vest......

Also we dont want the Mustangs to know what were doing.....and them, not us......I dont know how it is in the Mustang world, I havent paid as close attention as I should have, everyone says they will be this that and the other, RIGHT now I know of a car Capable of Nicking the A/SA record with Ease, and Probably the AA record if the info on his car is accurate (and I am sure enough it is we followed suit on many items) and the car lost a few more pounds.....

Do I think the SCJ's will be the first in the 8's ....Yes.....Do I think by years end the Challys will.....Yes.....Do I think the 2 can run heads up ? Yes by mid year I think its a lot closer than the people who have nothing but randon guesses and "think" they know something about both when they really know nothing of either. The SCJ's dooms for the people that get crushed is the DP owners are more familiar in most cases with their cars as the build process is different.....

The Mustang guys....well my HOPE is they only see each other as a threat and for that reason dont share info as we do....that would be GOOD for the DP world



The damm Camaros as youre saying are just ASKING to be competitive , youre right GM's Marketing has its head up their arses.

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly......I "THINK" the engine is capable of taking most small displacment 8s into the stone age.......Its gonna take guys who are running carbs now and drop them into the history books.....yeah yeah I know , this that and the other, this new thing never did X, that new thing never did Y and that what they said about this that and the other and "Were still here" I PROMISE you have never worked on or with a direct injection engine, its like comparing an updraft Zenith to a Dominator....And these are the things that are coming everywhere....very exciting time to be a gearhead.

Yesterday my father gave me one of the best compliments I could ever get from someone who taught me so very much about life, business, computers, everything, he said something and I said "Well it didnt used to be possible but now no problem" ,He said "You know thats one thing I have learned and had to relearn from you, Just because I tried and failed, and everyone tried and failed before they gave up the ghost 20 years ago on things, NOW they are possible and practical because of materials and technology that simply werent available 20 years ago, but the people will still tell you its not possible because they saw it fail in the past, you ignore that and say is it possible NOW ?" That was a big compliment to me to have my father say he learned something valuable from me......

Things like direct injection arent even close to new.....BUT they are now practical in everyday application, watch out for Desmo valves in your engine, 20 years and IF engines are still what we see them as I am betting materials will be available to make a maintenece nightmare an everyday item......wouldnt be the first time.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

I was talking about the 6, its good for 450+ Hp in Id say 2 years if done right, EASY....

The PROBLEM is that noone is making an aftermarket approved ECU that can handle hyperaccurate AFR on a DI setup. I do know one that will but youd have to throw them some coin to write the software, not much maybe 1000 if you wanted it within 2 weeks.

All R&D time..... it has SICK potential........sick...

And youre right , when setup for economy it can be great thats what the factory has done, but when emissions and economy are thrown to the wind.......ooodddddlllllleeessss of potential for stupid amounts of power. If youve ever used Di on a 2 stroke you know the potential is just silly.


What will a 375 hp + Stocker 6 do now ? In the Camaro Package with just cams ? then to over 400 with the "full monty" ? That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......

The 6 is what I was talking about.......thats HERE now.....and the injectors used are low potential , but the ENGINE is designed for it and can use legally any injector that will fit, and there are some out there in production that will fit directly with no mods that will let you accomplish what you want.

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly....

You guy's are off base on DI GM is not using it on any V8sor is it scheduled to be use!! If you doubt what I am saying look into the Corvettes in ALMS they had to remove it from the G2 cars last year not production. Also in the ALMS there was very little power gain with it, but it did help Fuel economy and that was is a big deal in a 24 hour race!!!

[jeff conley]

Here is the information on the Mass produced 2011 Mustang GT with the new Coyote engine. 412hp and 319 ft. lbs of torque NA


http://www.stangtv.com/forum/2011-mu...ased-6376.html

[BlueOval Ralph]

Not sure you any idea on what was used by GM on Vettte Alms.. It was a $40,000 + Bosch system not a production type ecu or injectors it was the same one Audi used on their ALMS engines be their Diesel era

Also on when you talk about phased cams the V8 only has one you can't change the centerline once ground---unless you are talking about cam inn cam as used on the current Viper this takes alot of $$$$$$$$$$ and still needs a extra ECU to tell the cams what to do + NHRA would not approved unless it was production and don't look for it to be in production.

Originally Posted by drooze

I was talking about the 6, its good for 450+ Hp in Id say 2 years if done right, EASY....

The PROBLEM is that noone is making an aftermarket approved ECU that can handle hyperaccurate AFR on a DI setup. I do know one that will but youd have to throw them some coin to write the software, not much maybe 1000 if you wanted it within 2 weeks.

All R&D time..... it has SICK potential........sick...

And youre right , when setup for economy it can be great thats what the factory has done, but when emissions and economy are thrown to the wind.......ooodddddlllllleeessss of potential for stupid amounts of power. If youve ever used Di on a 2 stroke you know the potential is just silly.

That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......
There is only one cam in the V8 pushrod motor and a phaser can not change center line it's fixed------ unless you use a cam in cam like the current Viper has but they have given up on that route you also need a seperate controller for Phaser.

What will a 375 hp + Stocker 6 do now ? In the Camaro Package with just cams ? then to over 400 with the "full monty" ? That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......

The 6 is what I was talking about.......thats HERE now.....and the injectors used are low potential , but the ENGINE is designed for it and can use legally any injector that will fit, and there are some out there in production that will fit directly with no mods that will let you accomplish what you want.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Nope not talking about the 8, talking about the 6, the 3.6 and several guys who helped with the protoype work on those systems will make custom sticks to any spec. (they made our stick to even though it isnt VVT of course) and they also make the other type as well. I opted for what I call the "NUCLEAR Option" enough ramp to be just short of breaking lifters, I assume 50 passes from a set to stay safe at first, well see maybe 100....but no more, I can still sell em for 1/2 of what Ive got in em with full disclosure of what was done with them to the "tuner" and street scene guys afterward so its not as expensive as it sounds, same with springs.

The 6 is a DOHC 4vpc engine that can BREATHE as well.

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

In as much as the ECU is concerned there are currently 3 systems on the approved list already that can handle the 4 cam phase, 2 for sure have generic code to do it that require some leg work, 1 for sure have the ablity and have already done it althought its not an "advertised" feature of their system and is in their firmware as "experimentaL"

Im not going to say which one and whose......YET....because its one were running and they are our Main Sponsor..Itll be a little Obvious at Pomona......I know the system and I also know several people running it with VVT, and a couple with DI, noone both yet but the system is not only capable but already approved.

The FIRMWARE code revision is meaningless as well for NHRA specs, and if you have access as I do to the "proprietary code" and a capable programmer , I myself am (Im talking raw code C and assembler) not the "code" the "tuners" think theyre doing. I opted to pay a small consultancy fee ($500)to a programmer overseas in England who has infinite familiartiy with this sytem, he had working in 2 days what John Meany resorted to a modified cam wheel and external crank trigger on the 6.1 for. It would have taken me a month in front of a scope writing the code, I wanted to eventually but well....$500 was a better way to go. That code is now available to all people running the system, so I paid to move up something on their "to do" list. AS Long as the Hardware is off the shelf available its Kosher......simple....

I dont know if Meany ever had the code finished for the other system, well get to see if Coughlin is running an external crank trigger. He was our choice at first but well after I saw what I considered to be a "hack" to get it running running at the time only 1 plug, I said crap I can do whatever I want.......I called up Bruce Bachelder to find out the system I really wanted to run would take to get approved, only to find out it had just been submitted and approved a month before but not by the manufactuer.......so its kosher.

The shop Im standing in now (typing this on the dyno console...lol) has 1 DI engine and 1 VVT phased twin cam motor within sight, both foreign but like I said before Drag is new to them, they hold some land speed recrods and mostly RR stuff but...........They custom harnessed my whole car from 12 to 10pm last night ... all computers in all tails run......I about fainted when I came in this morning, the elves had been busy.

The last part of the statment is incorrect , the NHRA has already approved several systems that are capable and in production and available over the shelf.

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Not sure you any idea on what was used by GM on Vettte Alms.. It was a $40,000 + Bosch system not a production type ecu or injectors it was the same one Audi used on their ALMS engines be their Diesel era

Also on when you talk about phased cams the V8 only has one you can't change the centerline once ground---unless you are talking about cam inn cam as used on the current Viper this takes alot of $$$$$$$$$$ and still needs a extra ECU to tell the cams what to do + NHRA would not approved unless it was production and don't look for it to be in production.

[BlueOval Ralph]

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

The Bosch for DI in ALMS as used is not the same as the as the Bosch 4.0 as used in the Rolex Series 4.0 is a spec ecu, as is the engine wiring harness. As for ti handling the phaser if it is a Enna phacer it needs a Enna drive controller and wiring harness.

Originally Posted by drooze

Nope not talking about the 8, talking about the 6, the 3.6 and several guys who helped with the protoype work on those systems will make custom sticks to any spec. (they made our stick to even though it isnt VVT of course) and they also make the other type as well. I opted for what I call the "NUCLEAR Option" enough ramp to be just short of breaking lifters, I assume 50 passes from a set to stay safe at first, well see maybe 100....but no more, I can still sell em for 1/2 of what Ive got in em with full disclosure of what was done with them to the "tuner" and street scene guys afterward so its not as expensive as it sounds, same with springs.

The 6 is a DOHC 4vpc engine that can BREATHE as well.

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

In as much as the ECU is concerned there are currently 3 systems on the approved list already that can handle the 4 cam phase, 2 for sure have generic code to do it that require some leg work, 1 for sure have the ablity and have already done it althought its not an "advertised" feature of their system and is in their firmware as "experimentaL"

Im not going to say which one and whose......YET....because its one were running and they are our Main Sponsor..Itll be a little Obvious at Pomona......I know the system and I also know several people running it with VVT, and a couple with DI, noone both yet but the system is not only capable but already approved.

The FIRMWARE code revision is meaningless as well for NHRA specs, and if you have access as I do to the "proprietary code" and a capable programmer , I myself am (Im talking raw code C and assembler) not the "code" the "tuners" think theyre doing. I opted to pay a small consultancy fee ($500)to a programmer overseas in England who has infinite familiartiy with this sytem, he had working in 2 days what John Meany resorted to a modified cam wheel and external crank trigger on the 6.1 for. It would have taken me a month in front of a scope writing the code, I wanted to eventually but well....$500 was a better way to go. That code is now available to all people running the system, so I paid to move up something on their "to do" list. AS Long as the Hardware is off the shelf available its Kosher......simple....

I dont know if Meany ever had the code finished for the other system, well get to see if Coughlin is running an external crank trigger. He was our choice at first but well after I saw what I considered to be a "hack" to get it running running at the time only 1 plug, I said crap I can do whatever I want.......I called up Bruce Bachelder to find out the system I really wanted to run would take to get approved, only to find out it had just been submitted and approved a month before but not by the manufactuer.......so its kosher.

The shop Im standing in now (typing this on the dyno console...lol) has 1 DI engine and 1 VVT phased twin cam motor within sight, both foreign but like I said before Drag is new to them, they hold some land speed recrods and mostly RR stuff but...........They custom harnessed my whole car from 12 to 10pm last night ... all computers in all tails run......I about fainted when I came in this morning, the elves had been busy.

The last part of the statment is incorrect , the NHRA has already approved several systems that are capable and in production and available over the shelf.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

No Im sure its not , its also 25 k more.....but what Im saying is with Bosch price is meaningless, they are expesive period like for a simple Rolex system which isnt rocket science, and CERTAINLY not worth 20k.

The point, my point, maybe I wasnt clear and its my fault.

In 1 to 2 years the DI VVT 6 will be capable of outrunning nearly every small displacment 8 out there. IF people develop the engine potential properly.

That was the point, the Camaro 6 has YEARS of potential, its all R&D, when they throw HP at it, so what there are 32 other things to find it on with a system like that ONLY concentrating on the Cam and Fuel alone.

Phasing the cams can be done already with the ECU were using, so that becomes moot, the DI can be done, like I said BOTH at the same time havent but thats because noone has tried, not that its not capable.

Mark my words the 3.6 Camaro will make a killer Stock Eliminator car, with years of potential, UNLESS the NHRA sets phasing specs, they havent so far, but it COULD happen.

This is a whole new animal to them.....to a large extent, how the rules are changed to reflect it will be interesting.

And the other point was GM has dropped the ball with as much potential as the Camaros DO have, and Im a Dodge Guy, I wouldnt mind putting my hands on a Camaro 3.6......

What you seem to be saying, and please correct me if Im wrong, is contrary to what Im saying, hence you are saying the Camaro 3.6 has no great potential, and that you think DI and VVT phasing isnt really going to gain much. (aside from the fact I can run 12:1 on 86 octane with a DI system)

????

Like I said, I think it has the potential......you seem to think its too hard and not doable ? Well......like Eisntein said "Wether you think you can or not, youre right"

So I guess were both right

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

The Bosch for DI in ALMS as used is not the same as the as the Bosch 4.0 as used in the Rolex Series 4.0 is a spec ecu, as is the engine wiring harness. As for ti handling the phaser if it is a Enna phacer it needs a Enna drive controller and wiring harness.

[CBS]

Hey Chris,

the SCJ Mustangs run in SS only.....they are not stock legal.....although they offer the 08

combo for 2010 and it can run in stock.....




One of the Mustang guys....Rock