09 Challenger/Mustang engines

[BlueOval Ralph]

Not sure you any idea on what was used by GM on Vettte Alms.. It was a $40,000 + Bosch system not a production type ecu or injectors it was the same one Audi used on their ALMS engines be their Diesel era

Also on when you talk about phased cams the V8 only has one you can't change the centerline once ground---unless you are talking about cam inn cam as used on the current Viper this takes alot of $$$$$$$$$$ and still needs a extra ECU to tell the cams what to do + NHRA would not approved unless it was production and don't look for it to be in production.

Originally Posted by drooze

I was talking about the 6, its good for 450+ Hp in Id say 2 years if done right, EASY....

The PROBLEM is that noone is making an aftermarket approved ECU that can handle hyperaccurate AFR on a DI setup. I do know one that will but youd have to throw them some coin to write the software, not much maybe 1000 if you wanted it within 2 weeks.

All R&D time..... it has SICK potential........sick...

And youre right , when setup for economy it can be great thats what the factory has done, but when emissions and economy are thrown to the wind.......ooodddddlllllleeessss of potential for stupid amounts of power. If youve ever used Di on a 2 stroke you know the potential is just silly.

That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......
There is only one cam in the V8 pushrod motor and a phaser can not change center line it's fixed------ unless you use a cam in cam like the current Viper has but they have given up on that route you also need a seperate controller for Phaser.

What will a 375 hp + Stocker 6 do now ? In the Camaro Package with just cams ? then to over 400 with the "full monty" ? That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......

The 6 is what I was talking about.......thats HERE now.....and the injectors used are low potential , but the ENGINE is designed for it and can use legally any injector that will fit, and there are some out there in production that will fit directly with no mods that will let you accomplish what you want.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Nope not talking about the 8, talking about the 6, the 3.6 and several guys who helped with the protoype work on those systems will make custom sticks to any spec. (they made our stick to even though it isnt VVT of course) and they also make the other type as well. I opted for what I call the "NUCLEAR Option" enough ramp to be just short of breaking lifters, I assume 50 passes from a set to stay safe at first, well see maybe 100....but no more, I can still sell em for 1/2 of what Ive got in em with full disclosure of what was done with them to the "tuner" and street scene guys afterward so its not as expensive as it sounds, same with springs.

The 6 is a DOHC 4vpc engine that can BREATHE as well.

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

In as much as the ECU is concerned there are currently 3 systems on the approved list already that can handle the 4 cam phase, 2 for sure have generic code to do it that require some leg work, 1 for sure have the ablity and have already done it althought its not an "advertised" feature of their system and is in their firmware as "experimentaL"

Im not going to say which one and whose......YET....because its one were running and they are our Main Sponsor..Itll be a little Obvious at Pomona......I know the system and I also know several people running it with VVT, and a couple with DI, noone both yet but the system is not only capable but already approved.

The FIRMWARE code revision is meaningless as well for NHRA specs, and if you have access as I do to the "proprietary code" and a capable programmer , I myself am (Im talking raw code C and assembler) not the "code" the "tuners" think theyre doing. I opted to pay a small consultancy fee ($500)to a programmer overseas in England who has infinite familiartiy with this sytem, he had working in 2 days what John Meany resorted to a modified cam wheel and external crank trigger on the 6.1 for. It would have taken me a month in front of a scope writing the code, I wanted to eventually but well....$500 was a better way to go. That code is now available to all people running the system, so I paid to move up something on their "to do" list. AS Long as the Hardware is off the shelf available its Kosher......simple....

I dont know if Meany ever had the code finished for the other system, well get to see if Coughlin is running an external crank trigger. He was our choice at first but well after I saw what I considered to be a "hack" to get it running running at the time only 1 plug, I said crap I can do whatever I want.......I called up Bruce Bachelder to find out the system I really wanted to run would take to get approved, only to find out it had just been submitted and approved a month before but not by the manufactuer.......so its kosher.

The shop Im standing in now (typing this on the dyno console...lol) has 1 DI engine and 1 VVT phased twin cam motor within sight, both foreign but like I said before Drag is new to them, they hold some land speed recrods and mostly RR stuff but...........They custom harnessed my whole car from 12 to 10pm last night ... all computers in all tails run......I about fainted when I came in this morning, the elves had been busy.

The last part of the statment is incorrect , the NHRA has already approved several systems that are capable and in production and available over the shelf.

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Not sure you any idea on what was used by GM on Vettte Alms.. It was a $40,000 + Bosch system not a production type ecu or injectors it was the same one Audi used on their ALMS engines be their Diesel era

Also on when you talk about phased cams the V8 only has one you can't change the centerline once ground---unless you are talking about cam inn cam as used on the current Viper this takes alot of $$$$$$$$$$ and still needs a extra ECU to tell the cams what to do + NHRA would not approved unless it was production and don't look for it to be in production.

[BlueOval Ralph]

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

The Bosch for DI in ALMS as used is not the same as the as the Bosch 4.0 as used in the Rolex Series 4.0 is a spec ecu, as is the engine wiring harness. As for ti handling the phaser if it is a Enna phacer it needs a Enna drive controller and wiring harness.

Originally Posted by drooze

Nope not talking about the 8, talking about the 6, the 3.6 and several guys who helped with the protoype work on those systems will make custom sticks to any spec. (they made our stick to even though it isnt VVT of course) and they also make the other type as well. I opted for what I call the "NUCLEAR Option" enough ramp to be just short of breaking lifters, I assume 50 passes from a set to stay safe at first, well see maybe 100....but no more, I can still sell em for 1/2 of what Ive got in em with full disclosure of what was done with them to the "tuner" and street scene guys afterward so its not as expensive as it sounds, same with springs.

The 6 is a DOHC 4vpc engine that can BREATHE as well.

In as much as the Bosch system, if youve ever priced their "BASIC" system for a road course car it STARTS at about 20k, but many sanctioning bodies REQUIRE its use...the price of something like that from Bosch is meaningless it lends nothing to the ability of the system. If I find my BOSCH racing pricelist Ill send it to you, first time I read it I thought the europeans added a bunch of 0's after everything.......it got filed in the "I aint paying for that" file promtly years ago.

In as much as the ECU is concerned there are currently 3 systems on the approved list already that can handle the 4 cam phase, 2 for sure have generic code to do it that require some leg work, 1 for sure have the ablity and have already done it althought its not an "advertised" feature of their system and is in their firmware as "experimentaL"

Im not going to say which one and whose......YET....because its one were running and they are our Main Sponsor..Itll be a little Obvious at Pomona......I know the system and I also know several people running it with VVT, and a couple with DI, noone both yet but the system is not only capable but already approved.

The FIRMWARE code revision is meaningless as well for NHRA specs, and if you have access as I do to the "proprietary code" and a capable programmer , I myself am (Im talking raw code C and assembler) not the "code" the "tuners" think theyre doing. I opted to pay a small consultancy fee ($500)to a programmer overseas in England who has infinite familiartiy with this sytem, he had working in 2 days what John Meany resorted to a modified cam wheel and external crank trigger on the 6.1 for. It would have taken me a month in front of a scope writing the code, I wanted to eventually but well....$500 was a better way to go. That code is now available to all people running the system, so I paid to move up something on their "to do" list. AS Long as the Hardware is off the shelf available its Kosher......simple....

I dont know if Meany ever had the code finished for the other system, well get to see if Coughlin is running an external crank trigger. He was our choice at first but well after I saw what I considered to be a "hack" to get it running running at the time only 1 plug, I said crap I can do whatever I want.......I called up Bruce Bachelder to find out the system I really wanted to run would take to get approved, only to find out it had just been submitted and approved a month before but not by the manufactuer.......so its kosher.

The shop Im standing in now (typing this on the dyno console...lol) has 1 DI engine and 1 VVT phased twin cam motor within sight, both foreign but like I said before Drag is new to them, they hold some land speed recrods and mostly RR stuff but...........They custom harnessed my whole car from 12 to 10pm last night ... all computers in all tails run......I about fainted when I came in this morning, the elves had been busy.

The last part of the statment is incorrect , the NHRA has already approved several systems that are capable and in production and available over the shelf.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

No Im sure its not , its also 25 k more.....but what Im saying is with Bosch price is meaningless, they are expesive period like for a simple Rolex system which isnt rocket science, and CERTAINLY not worth 20k.

The point, my point, maybe I wasnt clear and its my fault.

In 1 to 2 years the DI VVT 6 will be capable of outrunning nearly every small displacment 8 out there. IF people develop the engine potential properly.

That was the point, the Camaro 6 has YEARS of potential, its all R&D, when they throw HP at it, so what there are 32 other things to find it on with a system like that ONLY concentrating on the Cam and Fuel alone.

Phasing the cams can be done already with the ECU were using, so that becomes moot, the DI can be done, like I said BOTH at the same time havent but thats because noone has tried, not that its not capable.

Mark my words the 3.6 Camaro will make a killer Stock Eliminator car, with years of potential, UNLESS the NHRA sets phasing specs, they havent so far, but it COULD happen.

This is a whole new animal to them.....to a large extent, how the rules are changed to reflect it will be interesting.

And the other point was GM has dropped the ball with as much potential as the Camaros DO have, and Im a Dodge Guy, I wouldnt mind putting my hands on a Camaro 3.6......

What you seem to be saying, and please correct me if Im wrong, is contrary to what Im saying, hence you are saying the Camaro 3.6 has no great potential, and that you think DI and VVT phasing isnt really going to gain much. (aside from the fact I can run 12:1 on 86 octane with a DI system)

????

Like I said, I think it has the potential......you seem to think its too hard and not doable ? Well......like Eisntein said "Wether you think you can or not, youre right"

So I guess were both right

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

The Bosch for DI in ALMS as used is not the same as the as the Bosch 4.0 as used in the Rolex Series 4.0 is a spec ecu, as is the engine wiring harness. As for ti handling the phaser if it is a Enna phacer it needs a Enna drive controller and wiring harness.

[CBS]

Hey Chris,

the SCJ Mustangs run in SS only.....they are not stock legal.....although they offer the 08

combo for 2010 and it can run in stock.....




One of the Mustang guys....Rock

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Ok......now Im stumped.....I know what you know is correct so maybe you can help enlighten me. I havent paid near as much attention I should have but I should have but Ive been too busy trying to make this combo best (and I dont want to get too jealous of the 4 liter super

Correct me if Im wrong.

The FR500CJ (the 2008) can run ONLY AA correct (now) could run A and AA when it came out)?

Apparently in calling them SCJ's I have been wrong ?
(Im familiar with the OLD SCJ's) but I thought the NEW CJ's were also called SCJ's ? Is this correct ?

The 2010 CJ ? (not SCJ ?) will be able to run across several classes

The 2008 had enough HP added it broke to AA only ?

But the 2010 with all the different combos announced at PRI will be able to run (F?) across up ?

I guess what I meant by SCJ was really CJ ?

What is an SCJ then (other than the obvious originals ?)

Cheers

Chris

Originally Posted by CBS

Hey Chris,

the SCJ Mustangs run in SS only.....they are not stock legal.....although they offer the 08

combo for 2010 and it can run in stock.....




One of the Mustang guys....Rock

[lstanford]

The 2010 Mustang has two available engines, and three available transmissions for the 50 car build. The standard motor is an iron block, aluminum head engine rated at 425 HP available with a Liberty trans. or C4 auto. The optional aluminum block and head engine is rated at 475 HP and is available with the Liberty or a 2 SPD " Fordomatic". The 475 HP is OK'd for S/S only. The 425 HP is OK for Stock or S/S. The cars are very trick and come with two different axle ratios and even different size slicks depending on your motor and trans combination, Aeromotive fuel cell and pump, Strange 4 wheel discs, custom headers, Biondo launch control and the list goes on. No OEM has ever built a factory race car with this much thought put into it. I know you MOPAR racers love your cars but after seeing both cars, I think the Mustang blows the MOPAR away! The difference is because Ford has real drag racers helping to engineer and test their car and it is complete when you buy it. Put gas in it. check the tires and go racing. Ford makes two kinds of Hybrids, this one burns gas and rubber. Ok, now its time for bitching and complaining.