09 Challenger/Mustang engines

[mannymen]

No doubt the Comp Elim guys are all over these engines. A lot of power to be made. It's amazing to me to watch guys like Glen Treadwell run high 7's and low 8's in a roadster and dragster with 4 & 6 cylinder engines, when I can't get my V8 to go near as fast. I'm sure someone will have a twin turbo challenger/mustang motor that pushes 1500 hp plus soon if not already.

[hemidup]

Originally Posted by mannymen

No doubt the Comp Elim guys are all over these engines. A lot of power to be made. It's amazing to me to watch guys like Glen Treadwell run high 7's and low 8's in a roadster and dragster with 4 & 6 cylinder engines, when I can't get my V8 to go near as fast. I'm sure someone will have a twin turbo challenger/mustang motor that pushes 1500 hp plus soon if not already.

A stock block 6.1 Hemi is good for around a 1000 hp before you start to worry about the cylinder walls cracking. The 5.7 block is thicker, but no one has pushed the envelope on one just quite yet.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

And the Darton Wet Sleeves solve that but at around 5k + block for machine and sleeves by Darton....ouch......(I know a guy who got a price break he did 8 at once, they cut 300$ off each not much of a break in my book.) Turnaround time is about 1.5 months right now.

ALSO LSM Out of Michigan is making Billet 6.1 blocks , obviously no good for Stock, but they are water blocks or solid at around 9k, beats the 10k for a cast and sleeved Mopar 426 (3rd gen like the 1320 had).....

Oh well......its the Rise of the Hemi again....and damm are these motor designs sweeeeeeeeeettttt..... (except the thin castings on the 6.1)

When the VVT 6.4's hit they are going to be downright EVIL, and with MDS theyll get the same mileage as the 6.1 average.....cool stuff.

How many other (and this is a serious question) STOCK SHOWROOM engines (as the 6.1 SRT8 is) flow 300 cfm on the intake side bone stock ?

Originally Posted by hemidup

A stock block 6.1 Hemi is good for around a 1000 hp before you start to worry about the cylinder walls cracking. The 5.7 block is thicker, but no one has pushed the envelope on one just quite yet.

[W J]

Lots of the old 60's--70's equipment is maybe going to have to finally move over to nostalgia racing circuits in the next couple of years....unless they do some further adjusting to the stock and superstock classes....After dominating for almost 50 years, the new stuff will be driving around the old iron in the higher alphabet classes almost surely this season... Ford and Chrysler are leading the way, w/great new state-of-the-art cars and crate powertrains, while GM seems to be standing around w/their fingers up their butts---seemingly doing very little to promote a competetive 5th gen Camaro stocker or SS car, sadly enough... but maybe the government won't let them?? Just my .02 cents. WJ

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Im gonna kill 2 posts with 1 stone...(ok post)

RJ and WJ....

Originally Posted by RJ

Are any of the traditional stocker engine guys building any of these engines in the new cars? - I see a lot of talk, info, and pictures about paint and roll cages, but not much motor stuff.

Lots of people working on them and several "Old" (2nd Gen guys making the leap for GT) because of favorable ratings etc.

Lots of work being done, lots being shared between certain people, lots being kept quiet by us same guys....

The Engine and EFI systems are where a couple of us who are familiar with the engines hope to shine....maybe we will maybe we wont, in bike(yes all those who dont care) an engine wasnt enough......but a great package never had a pig of a motor either.

I dont have much choice I dont know JACK about Auto trannys , or JACK about drag suspension.....yet....someday I hope to (suspension, forget the tranny Ive resigned myself I understand how it works, and could rebuild one, but not make a performer_so that the only area I do have experience in , are the new hemis.

Several of us are sharing info, dyno results etc across teams who arent in direct competition because of chosen venues divisional regional national etc, we know there will be some overlap and weve all agreed that well shake hands run the piss out of our cars and buy each other a beer afterward.

People who dont know about the engines are seeking the help of those that do.....in drag racing, they trust proven drag engine builders....that makes sense, Stanton is one and there are a couple others, you wont see much drag work coming out of places like HHP or PPP (power ported) they have a market, street pounders.

Its happeneing and the discussions are being held behind the scenes I assure you, not 1 day goes by someone isnt sharing, or Im not sharing info on what weve learned.

I call it our little "Drag Pak Confederation" (I think Im the only one But its true, a loose knit group with their own results being sought, to lend a hand where we can and support each other as we can. Share knowledge none of us could gain all of independent to take what we share as accurate and truthful and return the same. No "curveballs"

We pulled off the build because of knowledge from people like "Mr M", Mike of MPR Race Cars, Doug Duell, Larry, Jerry, and people outside that KNOW the other areas like ATI, TurboAction, TTI, Pete Z, and on and on and on.......I share info back to them on everything I see....sometimes I am wrong, sometimes right.....Mike for example helped me to correct a "Roush" issue just this week.....and it was an issue on build from them......my solution wasnt good, Mike had seen it , I hadnt....now Ill share that with all I know and they with us.

I think if any of the people I am aware of find the "Perfect Recipie" they will share it.....I know I will with them.

But we ALL inside DP world have what we HOPE will be the perfect recipie of "11 herbs and spices"

LOTS going on with the Motors......LOTS being held close to the vest......

Also we dont want the Mustangs to know what were doing.....and them, not us......I dont know how it is in the Mustang world, I havent paid as close attention as I should have, everyone says they will be this that and the other, RIGHT now I know of a car Capable of Nicking the A/SA record with Ease, and Probably the AA record if the info on his car is accurate (and I am sure enough it is we followed suit on many items) and the car lost a few more pounds.....

Do I think the SCJ's will be the first in the 8's ....Yes.....Do I think by years end the Challys will.....Yes.....Do I think the 2 can run heads up ? Yes by mid year I think its a lot closer than the people who have nothing but randon guesses and "think" they know something about both when they really know nothing of either. The SCJ's dooms for the people that get crushed is the DP owners are more familiar in most cases with their cars as the build process is different.....

The Mustang guys....well my HOPE is they only see each other as a threat and for that reason dont share info as we do....that would be GOOD for the DP world

Originally Posted by W J

Lots of the old 60's--70's equipment is maybe going to have to finally move over to nostalgia racing circuits in the next couple of years....unless they do some further adjusting to the stock and superstock classes....After dominating for almost 50 years, the new stuff will be driving around the old iron in the higher alphabet classes almost surely this season... Ford and Chrysler are leading the way, w/great new state-of-the-art cars and crate powertrains, while GM seems to be standing around w/their fingers up their butts---seemingly doing very little to promote a competetive 5th gen Camaro stocker or SS car, sadly enough... but maybe the government won't let them?? Just my .02 cents. WJ

The damm Camaros as youre saying are just ASKING to be competitive , youre right GM's Marketing has its head up their arses.

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly......I "THINK" the engine is capable of taking most small displacment 8s into the stone age.......Its gonna take guys who are running carbs now and drop them into the history books.....yeah yeah I know , this that and the other, this new thing never did X, that new thing never did Y and that what they said about this that and the other and "Were still here" I PROMISE you have never worked on or with a direct injection engine, its like comparing an updraft Zenith to a Dominator....And these are the things that are coming everywhere....very exciting time to be a gearhead.

Yesterday my father gave me one of the best compliments I could ever get from someone who taught me so very much about life, business, computers, everything, he said something and I said "Well it didnt used to be possible but now no problem" ,He said "You know thats one thing I have learned and had to relearn from you, Just because I tried and failed, and everyone tried and failed before they gave up the ghost 20 years ago on things, NOW they are possible and practical because of materials and technology that simply werent available 20 years ago, but the people will still tell you its not possible because they saw it fail in the past, you ignore that and say is it possible NOW ?" That was a big compliment to me to have my father say he learned something valuable from me......

Things like direct injection arent even close to new.....BUT they are now practical in everyday application, watch out for Desmo valves in your engine, 20 years and IF engines are still what we see them as I am betting materials will be available to make a maintenece nightmare an everyday item......wouldnt be the first time.

[BlueOval Ralph]

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly....

You guy's are off base on DI GM is not using it on any V8s or is it scheduled to be use!! If you doubt what I am saying look into the Corvettes in ALMS they had to remove it from the G2 cars last year not production. Also in the ALMS there was very little power gain with it, but it did help Fuel economy and that was is a big deal in a 24 hour race!!!

Originally Posted by drooze

Im gonna kill 2 posts with 1 stone...(ok post)

RJ and WJ....



Lots of people working on them and several "Old" (2nd Gen guys making the leap for GT) because of favorable ratings etc.

Lots of work being done, lots being shared between certain people, lots being kept quiet by us same guys....

The Engine and EFI systems are where a couple of us who are familiar with the engines hope to shine....maybe we will maybe we wont, in bike(yes all those who dont care) an engine wasnt enough......but a great package never had a pig of a motor either.

I dont have much choice I dont know JACK about Auto trannys , or JACK about drag suspension.....yet....someday I hope to (suspension, forget the tranny Ive resigned myself I understand how it works, and could rebuild one, but not make a performer_so that the only area I do have experience in , are the new hemis.

Several of us are sharing info, dyno results etc across teams who arent in direct competition because of chosen venues divisional regional national etc, we know there will be some overlap and weve all agreed that well shake hands run the piss out of our cars and buy each other a beer afterward.

People who dont know about the engines are seeking the help of those that do.....in drag racing, they trust proven drag engine builders....that makes sense, Stanton is one and there are a couple others, you wont see much drag work coming out of places like HHP or PPP (power ported) they have a market, street pounders.

Its happeneing and the discussions are being held behind the scenes I assure you, not 1 day goes by someone isnt sharing, or Im not sharing info on what weve learned.

I call it our little "Drag Pak Confederation" (I think Im the only one But its true, a loose knit group with their own results being sought, to lend a hand where we can and support each other as we can. Share knowledge none of us could gain all of independent to take what we share as accurate and truthful and return the same. No "curveballs"

We pulled off the build because of knowledge from people like "Mr M", Mike of MPR Race Cars, Doug Duell, Larry, Jerry, and people outside that KNOW the other areas like ATI, TurboAction, TTI, Pete Z, and on and on and on.......I share info back to them on everything I see....sometimes I am wrong, sometimes right.....Mike for example helped me to correct a "Roush" issue just this week.....and it was an issue on build from them......my solution wasnt good, Mike had seen it , I hadnt....now Ill share that with all I know and they with us.

I think if any of the people I am aware of find the "Perfect Recipie" they will share it.....I know I will with them.

But we ALL inside DP world have what we HOPE will be the perfect recipie of "11 herbs and spices"

LOTS going on with the Motors......LOTS being held close to the vest......

Also we dont want the Mustangs to know what were doing.....and them, not us......I dont know how it is in the Mustang world, I havent paid as close attention as I should have, everyone says they will be this that and the other, RIGHT now I know of a car Capable of Nicking the A/SA record with Ease, and Probably the AA record if the info on his car is accurate (and I am sure enough it is we followed suit on many items) and the car lost a few more pounds.....

Do I think the SCJ's will be the first in the 8's ....Yes.....Do I think by years end the Challys will.....Yes.....Do I think the 2 can run heads up ? Yes by mid year I think its a lot closer than the people who have nothing but randon guesses and "think" they know something about both when they really know nothing of either. The SCJ's dooms for the people that get crushed is the DP owners are more familiar in most cases with their cars as the build process is different.....

The Mustang guys....well my HOPE is they only see each other as a threat and for that reason dont share info as we do....that would be GOOD for the DP world



The damm Camaros as youre saying are just ASKING to be competitive , youre right GM's Marketing has its head up their arses.

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly......I "THINK" the engine is capable of taking most small displacment 8s into the stone age.......Its gonna take guys who are running carbs now and drop them into the history books.....yeah yeah I know , this that and the other, this new thing never did X, that new thing never did Y and that what they said about this that and the other and "Were still here" I PROMISE you have never worked on or with a direct injection engine, its like comparing an updraft Zenith to a Dominator....And these are the things that are coming everywhere....very exciting time to be a gearhead.

Yesterday my father gave me one of the best compliments I could ever get from someone who taught me so very much about life, business, computers, everything, he said something and I said "Well it didnt used to be possible but now no problem" ,He said "You know thats one thing I have learned and had to relearn from you, Just because I tried and failed, and everyone tried and failed before they gave up the ghost 20 years ago on things, NOW they are possible and practical because of materials and technology that simply werent available 20 years ago, but the people will still tell you its not possible because they saw it fail in the past, you ignore that and say is it possible NOW ?" That was a big compliment to me to have my father say he learned something valuable from me......

Things like direct injection arent even close to new.....BUT they are now practical in everyday application, watch out for Desmo valves in your engine, 20 years and IF engines are still what we see them as I am betting materials will be available to make a maintenece nightmare an everyday item......wouldnt be the first time.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

I was talking about the 6, its good for 450+ Hp in Id say 2 years if done right, EASY....

The PROBLEM is that noone is making an aftermarket approved ECU that can handle hyperaccurate AFR on a DI setup. I do know one that will but youd have to throw them some coin to write the software, not much maybe 1000 if you wanted it within 2 weeks.

All R&D time..... it has SICK potential........sick...

And youre right , when setup for economy it can be great thats what the factory has done, but when emissions and economy are thrown to the wind.......ooodddddlllllleeessss of potential for stupid amounts of power. If youve ever used Di on a 2 stroke you know the potential is just silly.


What will a 375 hp + Stocker 6 do now ? In the Camaro Package with just cams ? then to over 400 with the "full monty" ? That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......

The 6 is what I was talking about.......thats HERE now.....and the injectors used are low potential , but the ENGINE is designed for it and can use legally any injector that will fit, and there are some out there in production that will fit directly with no mods that will let you accomplish what you want.

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Ill tell you my "PREDICTION" when the Camaro VVT Direct Injection AND someone who knows how to build or I should say modify the code on an approved system to handle the "wonky" AFR you need to handle to tune it properly....

You guy's are off base on DI GM is not using it on any V8sor is it scheduled to be use!! If you doubt what I am saying look into the Corvettes in ALMS they had to remove it from the G2 cars last year not production. Also in the ALMS there was very little power gain with it, but it did help Fuel economy and that was is a big deal in a 24 hour race!!!

[jeff conley]

Here is the information on the Mass produced 2011 Mustang GT with the new Coyote engine. 412hp and 319 ft. lbs of torque NA


http://www.stangtv.com/forum/2011-mu...ased-6376.html

[BlueOval Ralph]

Not sure you any idea on what was used by GM on Vettte Alms.. It was a $40,000 + Bosch system not a production type ecu or injectors it was the same one Audi used on their ALMS engines be their Diesel era

Also on when you talk about phased cams the V8 only has one you can't change the centerline once ground---unless you are talking about cam inn cam as used on the current Viper this takes alot of $$$$$$$$$$ and still needs a extra ECU to tell the cams what to do + NHRA would not approved unless it was production and don't look for it to be in production.

Originally Posted by drooze

I was talking about the 6, its good for 450+ Hp in Id say 2 years if done right, EASY....

The PROBLEM is that noone is making an aftermarket approved ECU that can handle hyperaccurate AFR on a DI setup. I do know one that will but youd have to throw them some coin to write the software, not much maybe 1000 if you wanted it within 2 weeks.

All R&D time..... it has SICK potential........sick...

And youre right , when setup for economy it can be great thats what the factory has done, but when emissions and economy are thrown to the wind.......ooodddddlllllleeessss of potential for stupid amounts of power. If youve ever used Di on a 2 stroke you know the potential is just silly.

That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......
There is only one cam in the V8 pushrod motor and a phaser can not change center line it's fixed------ unless you use a cam in cam like the current Viper has but they have given up on that route you also need a seperate controller for Phaser.

What will a 375 hp + Stocker 6 do now ? In the Camaro Package with just cams ? then to over 400 with the "full monty" ? That potential is there as we speak with a proper set of phased cams for the changeup and done all for power......

The 6 is what I was talking about.......thats HERE now.....and the injectors used are low potential , but the ENGINE is designed for it and can use legally any injector that will fit, and there are some out there in production that will fit directly with no mods that will let you accomplish what you want.