roush cars in stock and super stock

[stockracer]

Mr. Kish you will probably be most knowlegeable on this topic. With an intercooled car isnt it true that the car is less affected by the weather changes because the intake air can be made the same every run? Im only asking because I dont know. And in the blueprint specs it says Throttle Bore 2@62 mm, does that mean a total of 124 mm or a twin bore total of 62mm? And how will this compare to the SS/DX car that went 7.99 a few years back? Or is it any comparison? Once again I dont know. But one thing that did stand out was the 510 hp combo is 500hp in gt, thought that was kinda odd.

[Jeff Lee]

Three things will have to be monitored by tech. 1) blower speed. This obviously is a function of pulley ratio's which should follow OEM specs. We're in trouble if there are alternative pulleys made available. 2) internal blower specifications should not be allowed changes per OEM specs. 3) intercooler. There's a ton of performance in more efficient intercoolers. Cores, fins, overall size, etc.
I'm all for factory offerings being raced.

BUT IF "TUNER CARS" ARE NOW ALLOWED, WHAT ABOUT ALLOWING ALL THE FACTORY "TUNER PARTS" IF DOCUMENTED FROM PREVIOUS GENERATION?

[junior barns]

Jeff Lee

Factory tuner from prev. generation? Give example please??

[Evan Smith]

Bruce,

The Mustang I tested is a Shelby Super Snake, which is a Shelby GT500 Mustang ($50,000) that is modified by Shelby Automobiles after sale and original delivery for another $32,000. So this is a $90,000 car with tax and tags that is prepared post sale.

So, it is not eligible for competition in NHRA since it is not a factory-sold vehicle. It has a huge aftermarket blower on it that is not stock and is rated at 725 hp. In testing yesterday (Wed 9/9/08) it ran 10s at 130 plus, but that is all I can say because the results will be printed in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords magazine and I can't spoil the surprise.

At 435 and 510 hp respectively, I don't see the Roush cars as being a real threat, at least right away. That is a lot of power to carry, even with a blower. If you look in the guide, the '87 or '88 Saleen Mustang is also classified, which is a similar deal as the Roush, but with a stock drivetrain, albeit at a lighter shipping weight.

Evan

[Evan Smith]

All,

Why should blower speed be montored or limited? Turbo impeller rpm/boost pressure is not monitored or limited in turbo applications, or current blower applications, nor is rpm monitored or limited in a naturally aspirated combination. There is certainly power to be had by revving a n/a engine higher than stock, so why is that allowed? The blower is a part of the engine, and if it can legally be manipulated within the rules for better performance than so be it. Most of you run underdrive pulleys for your alternator, why? Because there is power to be had. So, the same rule should be in place for blowers.

You are all playing tech director and rule maker without taking into consideration your own combinations. If you are going to comment then look at the whole, not just your own agenda. Of course, everyone is worried that a blower car will dominate, but it's just a car with an engine and the AHFS will take care of it if it is underrated. Yes, NHRA will have to monitor performance for runaway combinations, just as they do or don't do with other engines.

Please look at both sides of the fence before commenting, that is all I ask.

Evan

[Chad Rhodes]

Hmmmm, maybe I need to make a phone call to Reeves Callaway...............no reason the ford guys should have all the fun

[Tim Kish]

Originally Posted by stockracer

Mr. Kish you will probably be most knowlegeable on this topic. With an intercooled car isnt it true that the car is less affected by the weather changes because the intake air can be made the same every run? Im only asking because I dont know. And in the blueprint specs it says Throttle Bore 2@62 mm, does that mean a total of 124 mm or a twin bore total of 62mm? And how will this compare to the SS/DX car that went 7.99 a few years back? Or is it any comparison? Once again I dont know. But one thing that did stand out was the 510 hp combo is 500hp in gt, thought that was kinda odd.

An intercooler will not alone reduce sensitivity to weather changes, without changing the intercooler setup the delta Temperature will remain consistent so if ambient increases 10deg, so will charge temp. Now much like icing an NA intake, you can run ice water through the intercooler (water to air style) - again that is not a means of reducing sensitivity to weather changes from perspective of improved consistency.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

All,

Why should blower speed be montored or limited? Turbo impeller rpm/boost pressure is not monitored or limited in turbo applications, or current blower applications, nor is rpm monitored or limited in a naturally aspirated combination. There is certainly power to be had by revving a n/a engine higher than stock, so why is that allowed? The blower is a part of the engine, and if it can legally be manipulated within the rules for better performance than so be it. Most of you run underdrive pulleys for your alternator, why? Because there is power to be had. So, the same rule should be in place for blowers.

You are all playing tech director and rule maker without taking into consideration your own combinations. If you are going to comment then look at the whole, not just your own agenda. Of course, everyone is worried that a blower car will dominate, but it's just a car with an engine and the AHFS will take care of it if it is underrated. Yes, NHRA will have to monitor performance for runaway combinations, just as they do or don't do with other engines.

Please look at both sides of the fence before commenting, that is all I ask.

Evan

And the turbo cars should have the same treatment. In essence, a turbo or blower increases cylinder pressure just as placing pop-up pistons in a N/A engine. If the factory intends for a N/A engine to have 10.0:1 compression then that is what it is by design; i.e., piston configuration, bore / stroke and combustion chamber size. It is fixed and if NHRA doesn't receive altered specification, it will remain unchanged and HP will be dependant on those fixed variables.
Obviously these factors still apply to a boosted application. Furthermore, the factory intends for a turbo or blower to provide a set amount of pressure to the cylinders. That figure, just as the N/A engine, should not be altered.
SCCA racing in the 80's was dominated by Chrysler FWD turbo cars. Eventually, SCCA got smart and required turbo racers to install an SCCA supplied / sealed waste-gate to the inlet befor each race. Boost was regulated to factory or maybe even SCCA specifications. As I once raced an A/FS '87 Shelby Daytona Z (2.2L 4 cyl Turbo II), I know the factory peak boost was factory specified and electronically controlled via the ECU & waste gate to 14 PSI peak. By passing the ECU to the waste gate is simple and I typically ran 20-22 PSI boost through the factory inter-cooler for approximately 275 HP or 125 HP per litre.
Danny Gracia was once asked about blown vehicles in Stock. I believe it was in reference to the Ford Lighning trucks. Now this is second hand information but what was related to me was "pulleys will remain OEM size". At the time I thought it was silly as the turbo cars did not receive the same consideration.
I'm sure all of this will be nill as Rousch & Ford will offer high altitude pulley options.
And I am all for the boosted cars and trucks in S/SS as this is what is offered. I'm just saying they need there own paragraph or two in the rule book.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by junior barns

Jeff Lee

Factory tuner from prev. generation? Give example please??

Lyn McCarty could burn up his keyboard talking about RA-V GTO's and T/A's. I have AMA specifications, warranty information and a host of other documents from AMC that show various "speed parts" as being factory approved items available for dealer install with full factory warranty.
At this point, it appears if Rousch could install a 460 crate motor in a new Ford platform (maybe even a truck?) and could get it to EPA certify then that would be acceptable for inclussion in the NHRA class guide. Correct?

[Bruce Noland]

Geezzz Evan,
that's no fair - you get to play with all the fun toys. 90 grand for a Ford Product. Henry would be shocked.

435 hp @ 3300 pounds sounds like 9.60's at 138mph or there-abouts. What do you think?