Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing

[DG]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

" Combine sticks and automatics"

"Eliminate half pound breaks"

I can think of as many problems with this as there are advantages.

For the advocates of these, what do you hope to accomplish, and what do you do about the inherent problems they create? ...and believe me there are many when you study the details.

What these folks that advocate the above changes are hoping to do is return the class back to being a performance based class. Another step in that direction would be qualified fields at National Events. Making Stock a more performance based class would spread the sheer joy of demonstrating performance that we love at Indy, to all National events. Adding these elements would also address problems associated with the AFHS relatively quickly, with so many more racers having to show what they got more frequently.

It would be interesting to see a poll among active stock/SS racers on if these ideas have broad support. There are certainly downsides to consider.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by DG

What these folks that advocate the above changes are hoping to do is return the class back to being a performance based class. Another step in that direction would be qualified fields at National Events. Making Stock a more performance based class would spread the sheer joy of demonstrating performance that we love at Indy, to all National events. Adding these elements would also address problems associated with the AFHS relatively quickly, with so many more racers having to show what they got more frequently.

It would be interesting to see a poll among active stock/SS racers on if these ideas have broad support. There are certainly downsides to consider.

Darin, Actually that was a leading question for the sake of discussion here.
Some folks just like to toss out these ideas without thinking through the ramifications of them.
Let's try this :
Starting in March, 202X, NHRA combines sticks with automatics.
A guy with a SS/L car can go 8 under. Another guy with a SS/LA can go 9 under.
Going by the automatic index, the stick car can now go a second under.
The auto guy isn't going to like that one bit.What does he do? He tries to get the stick guy to hit the 1 sec. under trigger. Even if he does force a hit twice, he's got at least part of the year to live with getting outrun, heads up.
Someone might say..Easy . NHRA has to put some hp in the stick combo.
The stick guy has to add a bunch of weight, or move up a class ...Neither which sounds too appealing to him.
Too bad, someone might say. This is all in the interest of creating more heads up runs.

BTW..Does anyone think that NHRA is going to follow up on leveling all these combined classes, expeditiously?

Think this stuff through, guys ..You just might end up being stung by what you wish for.

[Mike Volkman]

It's a mess. So many angles and opinions and no mater what is done someone is going to be angry. And then we can't understand why NHRA doesn't know what direction to take. Shoot - you can't even say something on this board, brainstorming without getting a call or two .

Probably most would agree that we want more heads up racing.

Probably most would agree that the way out combos - relative to their particular stock or s/stock class (and maybe not in regards to the whole eliminator) need railed back to a point within xx of the others. (The guys at the 90-1.10 mark are the ones I personally think need a break.)

Probably most would agree that when it is railed in, NHRA or the system doesn't kill the combo. It also needs grass roots knowledge of combo/class to determine if hp should be given at all. example: Take 2 cars in G/SA - heads up both go 1.05 under and are within .02 of each other and with the whole group there is only .1 difference - why bother them?

We know from past experience that a 1 strike hit isn't good for several reasons. Mineshaft, heads up, etc.

Two with averaging doesn't get us anywhere if there are many cars with combo.

What if 3 strikes against combo gets it with human oversight based on facts and not opinions. Wish there were a way that we could help NHRA with decisions and no bias from outside. There's a bunch of smart racers, someone has to have an answer.

One last thing for the night. We need to be careful poking the bear. There has never been any outright hint that they don't want or need stk/ss. It's just the opposite but sometimes there's poor execution. In reality, the aggravation we cause and never let them win would have caused me to eliminate the source. What I'm saying is they don't need us. Kevin P calculated the $$ once. They don't get much. We need them. I hear a lot about partnership and customers and not being treated well. I agree and sometimes it makes you wonder. But here is the bottom line. If they said tomorrow. We're done next year w stk/ss (like what has been done with the trucks and look at pro stock) we all would have a pile of iron. We need them and all these other organizations that come and go don't have jack Jones (The coveted Wally) and the racers - you and I who love class racing and struting like a peacock after winning.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by SDS Inc

What I'm saying is they don't need us.

I've gotta call B.S. on this one! Take S/SS out of the equation on a Divisional level and there would be a vast majority of tracks losing loads of money at Div. and N.O. races instead of possibly making a few bucks. I don't know about what would happen out west but take out the S/SS stuff and there soon would be no LODRS east of the Mississippi.

Ya know, 156 Stockers on a Thursday had to make SOMEBODY a few bucks! (don't always believe in the company line)

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

If this is REALLY supposed to be a performance (based) eliminator then NHRA needs to have knowledgeable people in the right places to make absolutely certain that the rules (as written) are being followed! And no, not having qualified people in the right places is no excuse. They (NHRA) seems to have plenty of qualified people in place to tech the Pros who have far looser rules than we (S/SS) do. No letting things slide for certain combos (and certain people) and no turning a blind eye to certain "enhancements" (heads) for fear of being hit with a lawsuit.
Start enforcing the rules as written and watch things (cars) slow down.

Ya know, I've gotta bring this thread back after a weekend of B.S.ing at the Dutch.
One of my real "pet peeves" in Stock is this whole "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head deal. When this was "sold" to us ( "us" meaning all Stock Racers, not just those who actually have access to "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder heads), it was "sold" to us under the premise that if an "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head was used it was with a 10 HP penalty over the OEM head. What happened to that? The way this deal is right now, the OEM head and the "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head are considered two COMPLETELY different combos by NHRA with their own AHFS factors! Right now, certain "aftermarket" aluminum head MOPAR combos are factored less than the OEM head combo!
I think that it's time to get back to reality here and either do away with the "aftermarket" aluminum heads and stop discriminating against those Racers who don't have access to them or go back to the original intent of the "rule". The OEM and "aftermarket" head should be considered one combo by the AHFS and if the "aftermarket" head gets an AHFS hit then the OEM head takes the hit and the "aftermarket" head is +10.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Ya know, I've gotta bring this thread back after a weekend of B.S.ing at the Dutch.
One of my real "pet peeves" in Stock is this whole "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head deal. When this was "sold" to us ( "us" meaning all Stock Racers, not just those who actually have access to "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder heads), it was "sold" to us under the premise that if an "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head was used it was with a 10 HP penalty over the OEM head. What happened to that? The way this deal is right now, the OEM head and the "aftermarket" aluminum cylinder head are considered two COMPLETELY different combos by NHRA with their own AHFS factors! Right now, certain "aftermarket" aluminum head MOPAR combos are factored less than the OEM head combo!
I think that it's time to get back to reality here and either do away with the "aftermarket" aluminum heads and stop discriminating against those Racers who don't have access to them or go back to the original intent of the "rule". The OEM and "aftermarket" head should be considered one combo by the AHFS and if the "aftermarket" head gets an AHFS hit then the OEM head takes the hit and the "aftermarket" head is +10.

Billy,
Why +10? Didn't we just talk about this in another thread?

Originally Posted by charlie westcott

There is a 559-M2 head on the list.
Thats what I was referring to.
The Mopar alum head looks to be the best candidate to me, but I dont see any reason to use them with a 60# weight penalty.
There is no performance gain, possibly a loss by putting the same port design in an aluminum head.

Stan

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Billy,
Why +10? Didn't we just talk about this in another thread?
Stan

Because that's the way it was originally "sold" to us. The OEM head HP factor or the "aftermarket" aluminum head +10 over the OEM head HP factor.