Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

In learning this the Kister Big Iron story is another I've tried to follow.
His 1960 389/363hp Super Duty car, followed by a 400/370hp (factored to 380hp) RamAir4 69 GTO, and then a "base" 400/350hp 70 GTO, all with national wins/records.

Kister was runner-up in D/S=9.00 class here at 69 Indy. The narrative I have says Robertson won D/S, but in a 69 Buick and no Buick will fit that class. So I guessed Robertson ran either a RamAir4 or a Z28.

Then from this picture out of Petersen, found with the help of another Class Racer, I concluded this was probably the D/S race where probably Robertson in the Z28 won against runner-up Kister in the 69 RamAir4

https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=320033

DC - Your 69 Indy list has a Z28 winning E/Stock (Durbin)....so not sure how one could also win D/Stock?

Sorry if that sends you back to the drawing board....

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 04:44 AM

Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac

McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto
Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock

....both at 69 SpringNats

What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted.

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac

McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto
Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock

....both at 69 SpringNats

What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted.

OK wait:
I have Davisson winning 69 Winter D/S=9.00 in a 62 Cat 421SD.

McClelland in 69 Spring D/SA=9.00, also 62 Cat 421SD
Sterling in 69 Spring D/S=9.00, again 62 Cat 421SD

The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969.

The Wolf car 69 Spring B/SA=8.00 could not be a 62 Cat 421SD - those cars are just too heavy.
The lightest aluminum 62 421 SuperDuty Cat I see is the aluminum front 2-door sedan at
3609/405=8.91 which would run in C/SA=8.50 but a bad fit.
The big 421SD always ran at W/P=9.01 from 1968-up which would be D/S=9.00 or D/SA=9.00 in 1969.

A 63 Swiss Cheese Cat could run up in B/SA=8.00 but those were never stock legal - not enough made.

oldskool · 09-29-2021, 03:43 PM

"...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..."

Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable.

Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F.

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..."

Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable.

Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F.

That sounds right.
3683/368=10.01 top of F/S=10.00 class
3683/333=11.05 top of H/S=11.05 (or H/SA if trans weight is ignored)

What I CANT find right now is where the 333hp car won or set a record.
But for sure, that combo is not way up there in the B/SA=8.00 class or even D/SA=9.00 class in 1969.

oldskool · 09-29-2021, 05:15 PM

"...What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats?..."

If it wasn't a 421SD powered car, I'd say it had to either be a Tri-Power GTO, or a round port Bird.

Those are the only non-421SD cars I remember seeing pics of, running in B. Even have a pic of Truman Fields' '68 Bird running in A/S. Pretty sure he set records in both B/S & C/S.

Don't know exactly what years he ran in which classes. But, apparently, round port '68 Birds ran B/S the first few years after they came out. Here are some pics. Mike McKinney was running B/S when he won Indy '77, in Truman's first Bird. That same year, Truman set the B/S record in the Bird he'd took on trade, from Mike. Also got the C/S Indy class win that year. Don't know what changes were made to switch from B/S to C/S, back then. Were you allowed to remove & add weight, in '77 ?

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 08:42 PM

Adding weight:
Per the books I have, thru 1969:
You could NOT add weight - if the shipping weight was 5 lb light, too bad, you went into the bottom of the faster class. So, just a bad combo.

Per my 1989 NHRA book, you could ballast or remove, 100-200 lb or so.
So, not sure about 1977.

The 1973 record had the same classes as 1968, so B/S=8.50, meaning the factor had to be between 370hp and 385hp. Since the RA4 was factored to 380hp back then, the RA2 at 370-375hp makes some sense.

Seems like those pictures are all B/S, but to get up into A/S, well the heaviest year for A/S was 1968 when A/S=8.00. Or, from 1973-up also had A/S=8.00 class To get up into A/S=8.00-8.49 the RA2 would have to be factored at 390-410hp, somewhere in there. I guess that's possible - they factored the RA2 way up, then back down to maybe 370hp. Bottom line is we just dont know.

Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a:
69 GTO RA4
69 Bird RA4
68 Bird RA2
Nothing else seems to fit up that high.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

OK wait:
I have Davisson winning 69 Winter D/S=9.00 in a 62 Cat 421SD.

McClelland in 69 Spring D/SA=9.00, also 62 Cat 421SD
Sterling in 69 Spring D/S=9.00, again 62 Cat 421SD

The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969.

The Wolf car 69 Spring B/SA=8.00 could not be a 62 Cat 421SD - those cars are just too heavy.
The lightest aluminum 62 421 SuperDuty Cat I see is the aluminum front 2-door sedan at
3609/405=8.91 which would run in C/SA=8.50 but a bad fit.
The big 421SD always ran at W/P=9.01 from 1968-up which would be D/S=9.00 or D/SA=9.00 in 1969.

A 63 Swiss Cheese Cat could run up in B/SA=8.00 but those were never stock legal - not enough made.

OK, I’m with the program now! I was working backwards...assuming less power = lower class....but forgot about weight.

So in Summary

- Wolf was NOT a Cat , either 333hp or 405hp
- The 333hp cars w ould have run very low classes

I think I’ll just have to take your best guess on Wolf’s car.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 09:45 PM

I’VE HAD A WIN! Colsey came through!

See the pics.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 10:21 PM

DC & OldSkool - On another tack....I’m making up a list of cars that were seen for the first time in 69 in SS.

Basically any new models, or existing models with new for 69 engines.

So far I have the L72 and ZL1 Camaros, the Hurst AMC AMX ...can you think of any others?

09-29-2021, 04:44 AM	#2
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 171 Likes: 69 Liked 32 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock ....both at 69 SpringNats What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Rat Patrol; 09-29-2021 at 05:07 AM.

09-29-2021, 03:43 PM	#4
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..." Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable. Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 09-29-2021 at 03:53 PM.

09-29-2021, 05:15 PM	#6
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats?..." If it wasn't a 421SD powered car, I'd say it had to either be a Tri-Power GTO, or a round port Bird. Those are the only non-421SD cars I remember seeing pics of, running in B. Even have a pic of Truman Fields' '68 Bird running in A/S. Pretty sure he set records in both B/S & C/S. Don't know exactly what years he ran in which classes. But, apparently, round port '68 Birds ran B/S the first few years after they came out. Here are some pics. Mike McKinney was running B/S when he won Indy '77, in Truman's first Bird. That same year, Truman set the B/S record in the Bird he'd took on trade, from Mike. Also got the C/S Indy class win that year. Don't know what changes were made to switch from B/S to C/S, back then. Were you allowed to remove & add weight, in '77 ? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 11-07-2021 at 09:36 AM.

09-29-2021, 08:42 PM	#7
DeuceCoupe Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 274 Likes: 98 Liked 48 Times in 44 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 Adding weight: Per the books I have, thru 1969: You could NOT add weight - if the shipping weight was 5 lb light, too bad, you went into the bottom of the faster class. So, just a bad combo. Per my 1989 NHRA book, you could ballast or remove, 100-200 lb or so. So, not sure about 1977. The 1973 record had the same classes as 1968, so B/S=8.50, meaning the factor had to be between 370hp and 385hp. Since the RA4 was factored to 380hp back then, the RA2 at 370-375hp makes some sense. Seems like those pictures are all B/S, but to get up into A/S, well the heaviest year for A/S was 1968 when A/S=8.00. Or, from 1973-up also had A/S=8.00 class To get up into A/S=8.00-8.49 the RA2 would have to be factored at 390-410hp, somewhere in there. I guess that's possible - they factored the RA2 way up, then back down to maybe 370hp. Bottom line is we just dont know. Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a: 69 GTO RA4 69 Bird RA4 68 Bird RA2 Nothing else seems to fit up that high. Last edited by DeuceCoupe; 09-29-2021 at 09:02 PM.

09-29-2021, 09:45 PM	#9
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 171 Likes: 69 Liked 32 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 I’VE HAD A WIN! Colsey came through! See the pics. Attached Thumbnails

09-29-2021, 10:21 PM	#10
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 171 Likes: 69 Liked 32 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 DC & OldSkool - On another tack....I’m making up a list of cars that were seen for the first time in 69 in SS. Basically any new models, or existing models with new for 69 engines. So far I have the L72 and ZL1 Camaros, the Hurst AMC AMX ...can you think of any others?