Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 04:44 AM

Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac

McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto
Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock

....both at 69 SpringNats

What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted.

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac

McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto
Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock

....both at 69 SpringNats

What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted.

OK wait:
I have Davisson winning 69 Winter D/S=9.00 in a 62 Cat 421SD.

McClelland in 69 Spring D/SA=9.00, also 62 Cat 421SD
Sterling in 69 Spring D/S=9.00, again 62 Cat 421SD

The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969.

The Wolf car 69 Spring B/SA=8.00 could not be a 62 Cat 421SD - those cars are just too heavy.
The lightest aluminum 62 421 SuperDuty Cat I see is the aluminum front 2-door sedan at
3609/405=8.91 which would run in C/SA=8.50 but a bad fit.
The big 421SD always ran at W/P=9.01 from 1968-up which would be D/S=9.00 or D/SA=9.00 in 1969.

A 63 Swiss Cheese Cat could run up in B/SA=8.00 but those were never stock legal - not enough made.

oldskool · 09-29-2021, 03:43 PM

"...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..."

Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable.

Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F.

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..."

Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable.

Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F.

That sounds right.
3683/368=10.01 top of F/S=10.00 class
3683/333=11.05 top of H/S=11.05 (or H/SA if trans weight is ignored)

What I CANT find right now is where the 333hp car won or set a record.
But for sure, that combo is not way up there in the B/SA=8.00 class or even D/SA=9.00 class in 1969.

oldskool · 09-29-2021, 05:15 PM

"...What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats?..."

If it wasn't a 421SD powered car, I'd say it had to either be a Tri-Power GTO, or a round port Bird.

Those are the only non-421SD cars I remember seeing pics of, running in B. Even have a pic of Truman Fields' '68 Bird running in A/S. Pretty sure he set records in both B/S & C/S.

Don't know exactly what years he ran in which classes. But, apparently, round port '68 Birds ran B/S the first few years after they came out. Here are some pics. Mike McKinney was running B/S when he won Indy '77, in Truman's first Bird. That same year, Truman set the B/S record in the Bird he'd took on trade, from Mike. Also got the C/S Indy class win that year. Don't know what changes were made to switch from B/S to C/S, back then. Were you allowed to remove & add weight, in '77 ?

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 08:42 PM

Adding weight:
Per the books I have, thru 1969:
You could NOT add weight - if the shipping weight was 5 lb light, too bad, you went into the bottom of the faster class. So, just a bad combo.

Per my 1989 NHRA book, you could ballast or remove, 100-200 lb or so.
So, not sure about 1977.

The 1973 record had the same classes as 1968, so B/S=8.50, meaning the factor had to be between 370hp and 385hp. Since the RA4 was factored to 380hp back then, the RA2 at 370-375hp makes some sense.

Seems like those pictures are all B/S, but to get up into A/S, well the heaviest year for A/S was 1968 when A/S=8.00. Or, from 1973-up also had A/S=8.00 class To get up into A/S=8.00-8.49 the RA2 would have to be factored at 390-410hp, somewhere in there. I guess that's possible - they factored the RA2 way up, then back down to maybe 370hp. Bottom line is we just dont know.

Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a:
69 GTO RA4
69 Bird RA4
68 Bird RA2
Nothing else seems to fit up that high.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

OK wait:
I have Davisson winning 69 Winter D/S=9.00 in a 62 Cat 421SD.

McClelland in 69 Spring D/SA=9.00, also 62 Cat 421SD
Sterling in 69 Spring D/S=9.00, again 62 Cat 421SD

The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969.

The Wolf car 69 Spring B/SA=8.00 could not be a 62 Cat 421SD - those cars are just too heavy.
The lightest aluminum 62 421 SuperDuty Cat I see is the aluminum front 2-door sedan at
3609/405=8.91 which would run in C/SA=8.50 but a bad fit.
The big 421SD always ran at W/P=9.01 from 1968-up which would be D/S=9.00 or D/SA=9.00 in 1969.

A 63 Swiss Cheese Cat could run up in B/SA=8.00 but those were never stock legal - not enough made.

OK, I’m with the program now! I was working backwards...assuming less power = lower class....but forgot about weight.

So in Summary

- Wolf was NOT a Cat , either 333hp or 405hp
- The 333hp cars w ould have run very low classes

I think I’ll just have to take your best guess on Wolf’s car.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 09:45 PM

I’VE HAD A WIN! Colsey came through!

See the pics.

Rat Patrol · 09-29-2021, 10:21 PM

DC & OldSkool - On another tack....I’m making up a list of cars that were seen for the first time in 69 in SS.

Basically any new models, or existing models with new for 69 engines.

So far I have the L72 and ZL1 Camaros, the Hurst AMC AMX ...can you think of any others?

DeuceCoupe · 09-29-2021, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

DC & OldSkool - On another tack....I’m making up a list of cars that were seen for the first time in 69 in SS.

Basically any new models, or existing models with new for 69 engines.

So far I have the L72 and ZL1 Camaros, the Hurst AMC AMX ...can you think of any others?

69 428CJ Fairlane Cobra 4speed RamAir.
(For 68 only the Mustang had those, Fairlanes were all auto flat hood)

69 GTO Ra4

69 Nova 350/LM1.
The LM1 350/255hp was factored to 270hp almost right away & still kept winning. It showed up &won in the Camaro, Nova, Chevelle, Camaro Ragtop, even the big car. It was kind of the new "283".
This is the same engine you'd see for the next 30 years in auto parts store lobbies as a "new GM Goodwrench 350 for $1195" or whatever.
It's just basically a 350/300hp with lower compression.

Some of the Hemi cars got ram air for 1969 which I think was new vs 68.
Factor didnt change AFAIK which is a little strange. NHRA didnt totally know how to handle factoring yet for combos that had EITHER flat hood or cold air. Sometimes cold air got factored higher, sometimes not.

09-29-2021, 04:44 AM	#1
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 169 Likes: 68 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 Davisson won D/SA atthe 69 winters in a 62 Pontiac McClelland ran the 383cui/333hp Tempest 4V motor in D/Stock Auto Max Sterling ran the same combo in D/Stock ....both at 69 SpringNats What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats? I’m guessing it was the 68 A/SA Springnats car - which was a 421/405 , like the pic Old School posted. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Rat Patrol; 09-29-2021 at 05:07 AM.

09-29-2021, 03:43 PM	#3
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...The 61 Cat/Ventura 389/333hp has a W/P of just over 11, which would run way down in H/SA=11.00 class in 1969..." Don't know about the exact math. But that sounds reasonable. Below is a pic of the Moore '61 368hp car. Caption says it set the F/S record in '69. So, if that caption is correct, then with a 333hp engine, it would have to run a lower class than F. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 09-29-2021 at 03:53 PM.

09-29-2021, 05:15 PM	#5
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...What combo would Wolf have run in B/SA at the 69 SpringNats?..." If it wasn't a 421SD powered car, I'd say it had to either be a Tri-Power GTO, or a round port Bird. Those are the only non-421SD cars I remember seeing pics of, running in B. Even have a pic of Truman Fields' '68 Bird running in A/S. Pretty sure he set records in both B/S & C/S. Don't know exactly what years he ran in which classes. But, apparently, round port '68 Birds ran B/S the first few years after they came out. Here are some pics. Mike McKinney was running B/S when he won Indy '77, in Truman's first Bird. That same year, Truman set the B/S record in the Bird he'd took on trade, from Mike. Also got the C/S Indy class win that year. Don't know what changes were made to switch from B/S to C/S, back then. Were you allowed to remove & add weight, in '77 ? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 11-07-2021 at 09:36 AM.

09-29-2021, 08:42 PM	#6
DeuceCoupe Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 274 Likes: 98 Liked 48 Times in 44 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 Adding weight: Per the books I have, thru 1969: You could NOT add weight - if the shipping weight was 5 lb light, too bad, you went into the bottom of the faster class. So, just a bad combo. Per my 1989 NHRA book, you could ballast or remove, 100-200 lb or so. So, not sure about 1977. The 1973 record had the same classes as 1968, so B/S=8.50, meaning the factor had to be between 370hp and 385hp. Since the RA4 was factored to 380hp back then, the RA2 at 370-375hp makes some sense. Seems like those pictures are all B/S, but to get up into A/S, well the heaviest year for A/S was 1968 when A/S=8.00. Or, from 1973-up also had A/S=8.00 class To get up into A/S=8.00-8.49 the RA2 would have to be factored at 390-410hp, somewhere in there. I guess that's possible - they factored the RA2 way up, then back down to maybe 370hp. Bottom line is we just dont know. Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a: 69 GTO RA4 69 Bird RA4 68 Bird RA2 Nothing else seems to fit up that high. Last edited by DeuceCoupe; 09-29-2021 at 09:02 PM.

09-29-2021, 09:45 PM	#8
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 169 Likes: 68 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 I’VE HAD A WIN! Colsey came through! See the pics. Attached Thumbnails

09-29-2021, 10:21 PM	#9
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 169 Likes: 68 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 DC & OldSkool - On another tack....I’m making up a list of cars that were seen for the first time in 69 in SS. Basically any new models, or existing models with new for 69 engines. So far I have the L72 and ZL1 Camaros, the Hurst AMC AMX ...can you think of any others?