Wondering what stock racers think

[X-TECH MAN]

All of you might as well run Super Stock with todays stocker rules ! There is nothing stock with stockers today. Been around this stuff since 1961 and have seen all of the changes !!!! The lack of NHRA tech is part of it. They do not want good tech guys anymore. Have to pay for the vice presidents they keep hiring. I can count the number of GOOD tech guys on my left hand ! I predict stock being combined into S/S sometime in the near future with MORE enhancement's being allowed ! Maybe turning it all into Super Pro in a few years ! Like this post or not.....It is what it is.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

All of you might as well run Super Stock with todays stocker rules ! There is nothing stock with stockers today. Been around this stuff since 1961 and have seen all of the changes !!!! The lack of NHRA tech is part of it. They do not want good tech guys anymore. Have to pay for the vice presidents they keep hiring. I can count the number of GOOD tech guys on my left hand ! I predict stock being combined into S/S sometime in the near future with MORE enhancement's being allowed ! Maybe turning it all into Super Pro in a few years ! Like this post or not.....It is what it is.

I don't know about Stock being combined with SS. There's still just too many of us. As far as the "turning it all into Super Pro" thing, I guess that I could see "Stock" becoming, stock appearing body and 9" tires, no classes and all run. That way the kids can race Dads antique with a modern engine/trans package.

[Gary Parker]

x tech man... I agree with you. Here we are talking about indexes and horsepower triggers.

1) how many people go to their engine builder hoping to hear "We got less horsepower for you this year"

2) Who wants to be going slower in a few years. Yea baby we slowed it down this year... we are on the right track..(never heard that at the track)

3) Look at the qualifying at Sonoma... 28 cars 9 tenths under and I bet they all could have gone a second under.

4) There is no easy answer but as long as we racers, we will work on making our cars faster

[Myron Piatek]

Lower indexes will only frustrate more racers. Not good for maintaining class racing. Gotta maintain some compromise to help new people get involved and go from there..

Charlie = low buck / newbie Stock / SS racer

Lucy = NHRA / lower index proponents

football = Stock / SS indexes

[Sean Cour]

Once or twice a year this topic comes up. Same answers to the same questions. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t stock and super stock performance based categories? The rules have given racers ways of making their hot rods faster, stronger, and be able to make more runs without the added expense of freshening as often. Why does it seem like “we” as competitors have to always placate to the “new” guy? We have been here, grinding it out, spending our hard earned money to improve and support these categories for years, or decades. Strip the indexes back a half a second, make the weight breaks one pound, and combine sticks and autos. Let’s get back to some fun!
Obviously the contingency has suffered because of the lack of participation, buying of parts to aid in performance, or whatever else seems to be the gripe of the moment. This would bring back the heads ups, performance based category that seems to be missing, all but one race a year.

[Gary Parker]

Where are all the newbies. I have seen a lot of COPO's at $ 90 TO 100 Thousand plus. Mustangs and Challengers. Reading filled up 30 minutes after it opened to a 5 grade point.

[Sean Cour]

Originally Posted by Gary Parker

Where are all the newbies. I have seen a lot of COPO's at $ 90 TO 100 Thousand plus. Mustangs and Challengers. Reading filled up 30 minutes after it opened to a 5 grade point.

So what you’re saying Gary, is that the stock and super stock categories aren’t dying off, or there is new blood coming in?

[Myron Piatek]

My position is not to "have to always placate to the “new” guy". But I'm suggesting that things don't get harder for a "new guy" to get involved.

"New guys" (and girls) are needed. You can't rely on the current racers to maintain the number of participants due to a variety of attrition. Not everyone can buy-in into a fast car. Starting from scratch and the rate of performance gains vary from racer to racer. People may want to get involved, but lower indexes can erase any progress or make some uncompetitive - like the 3 tenths certainly did. Slow, but under the index, already has several disadvantages - in heads-up races, HP hits from faster same class combos and just running the index under the worst conditions after getting there elsewhere. But there are people who still want to support the class.

Class can remain "performance based" and there still are some incentives. But putting too much emphasis on performance only will slowly raise costs and reduce the numbers, like Modified & Pro Stock. There will always be qualifiers at the bottom and those that have little chance at winning class or a heads-up, and that is incentive to go faster, as it's affordable. But at least new racers can still get involved and have a shot at winning the event. The indexes (minimum performance standard) still have to be met and aren't easy. National events take a lot of work and racing to get into and those with the resources can do it. Lower indexes will make it harder to race even at divisionals. I would hate to see them get lower and Stock become an exclusive club. Hoping for other options.

[Alan Roehrich]

Myron,
I really want to know how many people are truly considering quitting ONLY because they can't run very far under the index.


And out of those, how many are REALLY dedicating serious effort to going faster?


Those are serious questions.


Because often, the reality is people really aren't trying. And they're really just looking for a reason to quit.


Let's just be brutally honest here. If you REALLY want to go fast, you can get help, if you're actually trying. Hell, even the vast majority of the truly fast racers will go out of their way to help a slow guy pick up. But you have to WANT to go faster, you have to be willing to at least work, and bring your stuff to the track, and then all you have to do is ask for help.


Sorry, but when I first started working on Kevin's car, I really didn't have to ask for help. I asked 2-3 questions, and next thing I knew, more than half a dozen really fast racers, and top flight engine builders, were burning up my phone and my email offering help. And I mean bending over backwards, and pretty much taking money out of their own pockets.


Barry Parker was one of them, with tuning advice, and offering to loan me a carburetor. Keith Lynch not only sold me a carburetor core for 1/3 of what it was worth, but he gave me his place in line at Clark Holroyd's, and Clark stepped up, too, never mind tuning advice from both over the years. Barry Polley helped me when we killed the first engine due to a broken rocker stud. When a bad camshaft hurt one of our engines, Darrell Wikle sold me a new cam, at cost, as well as a brand new set of pistons, pins, and rings, then spent 3-4 hours on the phone with me. Arnold Greene helped me, not only with our stuff, but with stuff for others. Steve Calabro and Joe Fasano helped, too. Even Bobby DeArmond helped me. And Hell, Jimmy Bridges has helped me out more times than I can count. The list goes on, it would probably be a shorter list of who hasn't helped.



And then I've done my best to pay it forward, helping pretty much anyone who asks, and if I can't help, I can usually find someone who can, and I've rarely sent anyone anywhere for help that they didn't get it.


We keep hearing about all of these people who "can't go fast", and "wants to quit", but seriously, how many of them are really working on their car and can't make progress and can't get help. Because honestly, if you're a class racer and you want help, but can't get it, you probably ought to ask yourself what you're doing that makes people avoid helping you, because class racers just ain't that way.


Here's the deal. If you're not going fast, get some help, go to the track, and work on your stuff. If money is a problem, then maybe you need to do what Gary Parker said he did in this thread, park your stuff for a while, save your money, learn, and work on it, then go when you're ready. I know how he feels, we've parked our stuff, for a lot longer than we wanted, because we can't devote the time and money to do it right. My friend Barry Polley has done the same thing. Sometimes you have to. And we're not crying about it, nor are we trying to get anyone slowed down. We're saving our money, biding our time, and planning a comeback.





And let me be clear, I'm not advocating lowering the indexes, I'm really a proponent of changes to the AHFS, and changes to both points and payouts to make it pay to be fast.

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Gary Parker

Fair enough Gary.


My only question is, and again, not arguing, where does it stop?


Meaning, you worked hard to get to 1.00 under. But the reason is, you're never satisfied (mark of a good racer, never satisfied, always looking for that next 0.05) with how fast you are. So, when you get to 1.25 under, what then?


Alan you asked a great question. Where does it all end. The simple truth is , that it does not. Look at the records in any class from 20 years ago. Then 10 years ago and now. First pro stock to go 6.99 or 200 mph. Comp cars running faster than ever. The hemi challenge time for the past 10 years. And how about Booby DeAround going 9.99 in his big block 1969 camaro. Now no one blinks if a big block camaro goes 9's. Lets be honest. Who thinks their car will be going the same times in 10 years if they still have it. If you do you are fooling yourself. If just adding horsepower is the answer, in time we will all just be A cars. Technology changes, rules change and parts get better. No not everyone can run out and get the trick of the month, but over time we have all gone faster than years gone by. To just say that far under or the trigger is here and that's it, will not work. I think we need to look at what has been allowed (like it or not) and go from there. There may not be an easy answer, but we will all go faster in time.....Just my thoughts.. Gary Parker

Gary, I can feel your pain brother but we have to remember there are many racers who simply cannot afford to go fast. They shouldn't be shut out by the over achievers. There are many more .500 - .600 under cars than there are one second under cars. Without them Stock Eliminator would lose its character and vanish.

I'll offer a suggestion for National Events with Class racing. Have three rounds of qualifying with the AHFS in place, then bump the trigger up to 1.10 for Class Eliminations only. The first round of class would not be a qualifier pass. The actual Eliminator would be run using the current AHFS rules again. Yea, the slower cars will have to deal with the sharks in the Eliminator if they decide to enter the race. And the faster cars will have to deal with AHFS triggers. This suggestion is similar to what we had about ten years ago. And, of course mine shaft races would still use the 1.20 rule.

1.100 under should be the number for the Class Eliminator because not all fast combinations are created equal, no matter how much money or time we put into these cars some combinations will be better than others.