Going DEEP....

[Signman]

Think Mr. Williamson helped explain some of Mr.Wright's point: Being able to deep stage in Stock & Super Stock would be another method to protect your combination from horsepower.

Deep Staging would help low horsepower combinations and those who don't want to develop their race cars hit the tree better and there may be some added reaction time consistency when deep staging but there are some negative effects that can be exploited by smart racers.

For the foot brake bracket racers posting here: Why not make a rules change and allow No Box (trans brake with no delay box) legal for your series to align with the rest of the country as per Pro Eliminator at the Bracket Finals Final in Pomona, CA.and in most NHRA Divisions? So at No Electronics Bracket races you can Foot Brake Shallow or Deep or use a Trans Brake.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by philbilly

Bottom line the rich don't want the poor competing in this class.

HEY!!! You'd better watch that tone there, Sparky!

[philbilly]

I have my ring from stock eliminater. I am one of the foot brake racers posting. I do not deep stage but I think it should be allowed.
So you class clowns can frown upon us bracket racers all you want. Whats on your finger???

[philbilly]

There is no way to hide et with the timing system unless you are a sand bagger. But even that will show at half track!!

[Ellis V Buth]

Originally Posted by Signman

For the foot brake bracket racers posting here: Why not make a rules change and allow No Box (trans brake with no delay box) legal for your series to align with the rest of the country as per Pro Eliminator at the Bracket Finals Final in Pomona, CA.and in most NHRA Divisions? So at No Electronics Bracket races you can Foot Brake Shallow or Deep or use a Trans Brake.

Here in Illinois, "Pro" is footbrake and transbrake allowed at every track. I think there's only 1 or 2 tracks here that has a true "footbrake" class other than sportsman...and they are both outlaw.


The races I go to for "footbrake" only are bigger races (World Footbrake Challenge, Loose Rocker Promotions races, etc.) where the rules are explicitly set up for footbrake. I also go to a few races closer to home that are "No Box" which allow transbrakes/2 steps as well as footbrake. But the races where I run "a series" as you put it align with the NHRA rules for the Bracket Finals and Pomona.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Signman

Being able to deep stage in Stock & Super Stock would be another method to protect your combination from horsepower.

Right. I forgot about all those -1.30 under cars that deep staged back in the day just to try to save their HP factor. LOL People have been protecting their HP for decades without deep staging. Deep staging is about slow-reacting cars or drivers being able to be competitive.

As I posted earlier, there is a huge difference in rollout possible from track to track due to variations in timing systems: as much as .06, and I've seen .04 difference between drivers and the "sweet spot" that works for *them*. Add in the variables of the car's power, suspension setup, shocks, tires, gear, converter, how the tire exits the stage beams, ad infinitum, you have a potentially MASSIVE range of reaction time variables. Just because one person at one track in one car has the optimum setup does not mean that another person does, or even the same person at another track. As I also pointed out earlier, with the level of competition today, just having a 'teen' light every once in awhile does not qualify as "hitting the tree". You need to have a narrow window, and be able to repeat consistently. "OK" is not good enough.

For the foot brake bracket racers posting here: Why not make a rules change and allow No Box (trans brake with no delay box) legal for your series to align with the rest of the country as per Pro Eliminator at the Bracket Finals Final in Pomona, CA.and in most NHRA Divisions? So at No Electronics Bracket races you can Foot Brake Shallow or Deep or use a Trans Brake.

There is a wide swath of the country whose bottom-bulb class is still pure Footbrake. This is like asking transbrakes to be legalized in Stock. Some people like a little purity in the sport. (Kinda funny that Stock allows more driver aids than Footbrake!) Transbrakes are a completely separate topic from deep staging.

I'm not pushing for any rules changes. I'm well aware of how far gone they are. It's just an academic discussion. It's been a pretty revealing one, too. It's absolutely staggering how little some people understand how timing systems work.

[j gardiner]

Amen, sir

[Ron Ortiz]

I have 30" tires on the front, 32 pounds of air in the slicks, my 60' range from 1.89 on cool days to 1.92 in the heat. I shallow stage and leave on the third amber. Once in a while it is a .000 and between a .030 I do not deep stage. I don't know how. But this seems to be working out OK until I decide to do something stupid like a .075 or worse.

If you have to do a lot of adjustments to hit the tree hard, maybe you need to change the air in your head.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA I see said the blind man.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Ron Ortiz

I have 30" tires on the front, 32 pounds of air in the slicks, my 60' range from 1.89 on cool days to 1.92 in the heat. I shallow stage and leave on the third amber. Once in a while it is a .000 and between a .030 I do not deep stage. I don't know how. But this seems to be working out OK until I decide to do something stupid like a .075 or worse.

The .075 is probably your "natural" spot in the car, and the better ones are from counting the tree or otherwise taking a stab at it. Try hitting a .500 Pro Tree at a test and tune, and you will realize that you are not actually reacting to the 3rd bulb. Even in the Volare, I'm technically not seeing the 3rd bulb. When you can see the full tree, you have a subconscious anticipation of about .03. If I were to block the top two, I wouldn't have a prayer of having a decent light.

Billy Nees is the closest thing to a slow car driver reacting to the 3rd bulb. His physical reaction times are quick as a cat, and he drinks leaded coffee on top of that. But he is FAR from the norm. (Take that how you like it)

[Signman]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

There is a wide swath of the country whose bottom-bulb class is still pure Footbrake. This is like asking transbrakes to be legalized in Stock. Some people like a little purity in the sport. (Kinda funny that Stock allows more driver aids than Footbrake!) Transbrakes are a completely separate topic from deep staging.

A big reason why I went stock eliminator racing was for a more pure footbrake. Would love to get rid of 2 steps and auto shift even though I can legally use both don't, not even the internal hydraulic 1-2 shift many use. Not using these aids adds variables to ET as well as deep Staging adds variables to RT.
Was at a race and at fuel check was pulled aside by a tech official who explained that Stock was Foot Brake and Trans Brakes were not allowed, another official went and checked my car durring the discussion and found nothing. Apparently someone on the starting line saw something. I explained to both that I was Purely Foot Braking not even a 2 step told them "it's just more stuff to break".

Heavy (which I loved) became Pro which is No Box in most of the country as you know. I didn't like the 9.0 ET break with the reassoning that Suoer Pro door car racers who were tired of racing dragsters would enter but but they didn't. There are some who would say Heavy went to hell when the ET brake was lowered to 10.0. I brought up No Box and trans brakes becasue like deep they add another varuable and for some consistency. Why not do what is done in much of the country?

There would be no argument against Deep Staging if Deep Stage Racers did not take advantage of thier Shallow Stage Opponents. Agree it's not all of them but there are plenty.