Racer Suspension

Tony Janes · 05-17-2013, 05:53 PM

The owner is not suspended.

C and W Racing · 05-17-2013, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Janes

The owner is not suspended.

So if you drive a car that someone else owns and something about it is illegal and it gets found, the owner gets a free pass but the driver gets penalized? To be honest, that sounds backwards to what it should be. What if the driver had no idea something is wrong. There are a lot of people, me included, that drive a car that's owned by someone else. I know that the vast majority have no idea if the cars they are driving is completely legal.
Chuck

Toby Lang · 05-17-2013, 08:21 PM

That's the way I've always heard it was done. It's the driver's responsibility to make sure the car is legal. Of course, you can't check everything, but that's the risk you take for driving someone else's car.

I can see where the pros are a different story though. The driver, owner and crew chief are well defined unlike the sportsman classes. NHRA does things similar to the way NASCAR does it.

sammy pizzolato · 05-17-2013, 09:14 PM

evan you missed my point. my point is that if a 20 year stock seat belt half the width half the thickness will hold up a car. a two year old race belt can't be bad in two years.the two year rule on seat belts should be every five years at the least.there is no way that a racing belt should go bad in two years.my good friend owns a wire rope co he has a tester.we tested a ten year old racing belt and the metal hardware broke and the belt never broke. and jeff teuton had him test it.

Bobby Brannon · 05-17-2013, 10:41 PM

You as the driver signed the tech card. You are the only one (driver) that's has to be held accountable. Doesn't matter who own's the car. Bob Dennis is the only person who can answer what happen.(don't count NHRA tech person)

Greenlight · 05-18-2013, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy pizzolato

evan you missed my point. my point is that if a 20 year stock seat belt half the width half the thickness will hold up a car. a two year old race belt can't be bad in two years.the two year rule on seat belts should be every five years at the least.there is no way that a racing belt should go bad in two years.my good friend owns a wire rope co he has a tester.we tested a ten year old racing belt and the metal hardware broke and the belt never broke. and jeff teuton had him test it.

Sammy, the OEM seat belts (~1.8" -2.0" wide) have a minimum break requirement of 6000 lbs. and must retain at least 60% of that strength (3600 lbs.) after long term exposure to radiation (i.e. 20 years), etc. (see FMVSS # 209). For a 220 lb. driver (95% percentile), the 20 year old seat belt can withstand about 17g (maybe a 60 mph crash in a modern car).

The attachments (metal portions) each must withstand at least 2500 lbs. (during a crash the seat belt takes the entire load, while the load is distributed to several hardware points.
Generally speaking, the hardware maintains its strength for more than 20 years. That's why you could pick up the 20 year old car by the seat belt.

Racing seat belts are wider and the racer is exposed to more seat belt area (3" wide, 5 pt.), which is very good in distributing the load to the driver during an impact (maybe a 60g impact). The problem, as I see it, is the SFI spec. indicates that the common material used in "racing" seat belts (Dupont Nylon 6-6) maintains only 60% of its strength after 1 years exposure to radiation, and may only retain 10% of their strength after only 2 years of exposure to the elements. This is what I find unbelievable.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html

If the SFI spec. required manufacturers to use OEM type material (probably slightly more expensive) the seat belt recertification time could be extended, but the manufacturers would make less $$$ (you always have to follow the $$ trail).

Of course, none of us throw our seat belts out in the sun between races (unless we find out that David Rampy is doing it to gain a competitive advantage, then you would see Sun-dried seat belts for sale for $1000s on Racing Junk), so the 3" wide webbing will likely be stronger than the metal components even after 10 years. Hence the hardware breaking in your 10 year old seat belt test.

As I recall, the webbing failed (or the sewing) in Lee Shephard's crash in 1985, which prompted the seat belt rules being what they are today.

Randall Klein · 05-18-2013, 09:21 AM

Good info Greenlight, appreciated.....do we know if Sheperds belts/stitching failed or early rumors that they were not in use.....regardless this seatbelt "fee" came shortly after that incident....and we are still paying

Bill Koski · 05-18-2013, 10:08 AM

What is interesting then is that NASCAR has a five year limit on these same belts?
It would seem their belts are liable to be stressed to far more G's then drag racers belts!
The rumors at the time were that LS didn't have his helmet or belts on? He'd been doing only 60 footers so that seems likely.

Mark Yacavone · 05-18-2013, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenlight

As I recall, the webbing failed (or the sewing) in Lee Shephard's crash in 1985, which prompted the seat belt rules being what they are today.

I seem to remember the state of New Jersey having this, as another one of their BS laws, first.
NHRA said ...Hmmm.. another contingency opportunity. They wouldn't want to pay out any money themselves... so here ya go,..nationally.

SSDiv6 · 05-18-2013, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=Greenlight;381934]Sammy, the OEM seat belts (~1.8" -2.0" wide) have a minimum break requirement of 6000 lbs. and must retain at least 60% of that strength (3600 lbs.) after long term exposure to radiation (i.e. 20 years), etc. (see FMVSS # 209). For a 220 lb. driver (95% percentile), the 20 year old seat belt can withstand about 17g (maybe a 60 mph crash in a modern car).

The attachments (metal portions) each must withstand at least 2500 lbs. (during a crash the seat belt takes the entire load, while the load is distributed to several hardware points.
Generally speaking, the hardware maintains its strength for more than 20 years. That's why you could pick up the 20 year old car by the seat belt.

Racing seat belts are wider and the racer is exposed to more seat belt area (3" wide, 5 pt.), which is very good in distributing the load to the driver during an impact (maybe a 60g impact). The problem, as I see it, is the SFI spec. indicates that the common material used in "racing" seat belts (Dupont Nylon 6-6) maintains only 60% of its strength after 1 years exposure to radiation, and may only retain 10% of their strength after only 2 years of exposure to the elements. This is what I find unbelievable.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html

If the SFI spec. required manufacturers to use OEM type material (probably slightly more expensive) the seat belt recertification time could be extended, but the manufacturers would make less $$$ (you always have to follow the $$ trail).QUOTE]

About 10 years ago, I had a discussion with SFI on this subject with enough criteria for extending the expiration requirements for Sportsman racers. I provided actual testing results on seat belts performed under the DOT standards with additional analysis that was extrapolated to expected motorsports and racing forces during a crash and additional studies based on published SAE papers. Guess what? They did not care.

If SFI changed the belt material specifications, it will not increase the cost of the belts. You can procure 660 feet of belt webbing that exceeds both the DOT and SFI requirements for around $150.00. The cost of the belt is in the fabrication and manufacturing.

05-17-2013, 05:53 PM	#1
Tony Janes Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Whittier, Ca Posts: 830 Likes: 94 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension The owner is not suspended. __________________ Tony Janes 7941 STK, SS

05-17-2013, 08:21 PM	#3
Toby Lang VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 2,133 Likes: 2 Liked 2 Times in 1 Post	Re: Racer Suspension That's the way I've always heard it was done. It's the driver's responsibility to make sure the car is legal. Of course, you can't check everything, but that's the risk you take for driving someone else's car. I can see where the pros are a different story though. The driver, owner and crew chief are well defined unlike the sportsman classes. NHRA does things similar to the way NASCAR does it. Last edited by Toby Lang; 05-17-2013 at 08:30 PM.

05-17-2013, 09:14 PM	#4
sammy pizzolato Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: houma louisiana Posts: 432 Likes: 52 Liked 56 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension evan you missed my point. my point is that if a 20 year stock seat belt half the width half the thickness will hold up a car. a two year old race belt can't be bad in two years.the two year rule on seat belts should be every five years at the least.there is no way that a racing belt should go bad in two years.my good friend owns a wire rope co he has a tester.we tested a ten year old racing belt and the metal hardware broke and the belt never broke. and jeff teuton had him test it.

05-17-2013, 10:41 PM	#5
Bobby Brannon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bossier City,La. Posts: 659 Likes: 3 Liked 104 Times in 35 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension You as the driver signed the tech card. You are the only one (driver) that's has to be held accountable. Doesn't matter who own's the car. Bob Dennis is the only person who can answer what happen.(don't count NHRA tech person) __________________ Bobby Brannon 4705 STK, SS

05-18-2013, 09:21 AM	#7
Randall Klein Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 785 Likes: 45 Liked 316 Times in 67 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension Good info Greenlight, appreciated.....do we know if Sheperds belts/stitching failed or early rumors that they were not in use.....regardless this seatbelt "fee" came shortly after that incident....and we are still paying

05-18-2013, 10:08 AM	#8
Bill Koski Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Las Vegas NV Posts: 213 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension What is interesting then is that NASCAR has a five year limit on these same belts? It would seem their belts are liable to be stressed to far more G's then drag racers belts! The rumors at the time were that LS didn't have his helmet or belts on? He'd been doing only 60 footers so that seems likely.

05-18-2013, 02:40 PM	#10
SSDiv6 VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Glendale, Arizona Posts: 3,044 Likes: 712 Liked 1,579 Times in 582 Posts	Re: Racer Suspension [QUOTE=Greenlight;381934]Sammy, the OEM seat belts (~1.8" -2.0" wide) have a minimum break requirement of 6000 lbs. and must retain at least 60% of that strength (3600 lbs.) after long term exposure to radiation (i.e. 20 years), etc. (see FMVSS # 209). For a 220 lb. driver (95% percentile), the 20 year old seat belt can withstand about 17g (maybe a 60 mph crash in a modern car). The attachments (metal portions) each must withstand at least 2500 lbs. (during a crash the seat belt takes the entire load, while the load is distributed to several hardware points. Generally speaking, the hardware maintains its strength for more than 20 years. That's why you could pick up the 20 year old car by the seat belt. Racing seat belts are wider and the racer is exposed to more seat belt area (3" wide, 5 pt.), which is very good in distributing the load to the driver during an impact (maybe a 60g impact). The problem, as I see it, is the SFI spec. indicates that the common material used in "racing" seat belts (Dupont Nylon 6-6) maintains only 60% of its strength after 1 years exposure to radiation, and may only retain 10% of their strength after only 2 years of exposure to the elements. This is what I find unbelievable. http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html If the SFI spec. required manufacturers to use OEM type material (probably slightly more expensive) the seat belt recertification time could be extended, but the manufacturers would make less $$$ (you always have to follow the $$ trail).QUOTE] About 10 years ago, I had a discussion with SFI on this subject with enough criteria for extending the expiration requirements for Sportsman racers. I provided actual testing results on seat belts performed under the DOT standards with additional analysis that was extrapolated to expected motorsports and racing forces during a crash and additional studies based on published SAE papers. Guess what? They did not care. If SFI changed the belt material specifications, it will not increase the cost of the belts. You can procure 660 feet of belt webbing that exceeds both the DOT and SFI requirements for around $150.00. The cost of the belt is in the fabrication and manufacturing.