2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide

davidhuff · 04-28-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

Maybe, but I think the best way to get new fans into racing is one at a time. Bring a neighborhood kid to the races or a test and tune. Play big brother for a day. Let them ride with you during the warm up and to the lanes. The bug will bite them hard.

Just seeing the cars doesn't have the tangible impact that sitting in the car, hearing and feeling the rumble happens to have. Whop the throttle a time or two to really drive home the message. It will have a huge impact on your guest.

One of my clients attended a race to help me on a Make a Wish event I did for a boy. She got hooked! I did all of the above and she is a regular at the races. She even brings or sends cookies! Can't get any better than that.

I could not agree more with your message.When I take my son I always invite his friends to come with us and they all seem to love it once they understand just how hard the sportsman racer works to just get to the race.The Sportsman Racer Is NHRA!

H Hoover · 04-28-2012, 01:18 PM

This economy has been sinking for a solid 4 years now. Maybe thats why no one is at the races. Everybody is broke. I don't go as much as I would like because I have to work 7 days a week to make ends meet. Maybe a lot of you guys who race are retired and can afford to smell the nitro.

At the very least these new cars are something to talk about.....

zracer305 · 06-20-2013, 03:43 PM

Gentlemen,
For those of you who think more and new cars are the answer for Stock Eliminator is the answer please read on. I am fully convinced that GM and the NHRA do not want any competition for the new Camaro. I had plans to build a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V that is not on the NHRA approved list. When I looked into getting it approved I was shot down by GM. Please read the emails between myself, NHRA and GM below. Start at the bottom and read up to make better sense. GM comments are in bold.

From my engine develpoer:

xxxxxxxl,

trying to fight NHRA, is bad enough, NHRA and GM, i do not think there is any hope, as i said when we talked , a cadilac would for sure be a novel car to race in GT, there are variety of engine combos that would work including some of the new GM crate engines, think about it if you feel you are interested let me know

To my engine developer,

Wow!!! I guess he told me.

Looks like unless you are building a new Camaro for stock you can't play. I'd expect this from NHRA but, this is GM talking. I've got the nerve to build it anyway and run IHRA.

I guess we will just have to agree to dis-agree in regards to HP potential of the LSA engine in NHRA "stock" eliminator configuration. Regardless....it doesn't change anyting. I hope I can save the Cadillac dealer from investing $200K in a bad plan.

What I was trying to explain relative to "swim lanes" was how we divide up our brand markets. In motorsports, Cadillac uses Road Racing where competitors complete (Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) to promote their vehicles and generate leads with potential customers.

Chevrolet uses NASCAR (Toyota, Ford), and Drag Racing (Toyota, Ford, Dodge) to promote their vehicles. We have invested significant resources in building and promoting Camaro in NHRA. We each have a "lane" that is used to market our vehicles to the desired customer base.

We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation.

Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan.

Great to see you are so enthusiastic about Cadillac and Drag Racing. Unfortunately....there is not any "Stock Eliminator" classes that would allow the CTS-V to be competitive and therefore have positive exposure.

See my responses below.

Good aftenoon Roger,
Again thank you for responding so quickly. I have asked a few more questions, this time in Green.

Good questions xxxxxx

See below.

Hi xxxxx....sounds like you like a challenge.

For a vehicle to be run in NHRA Stock Eliminator category....there are 2 separate ways to get a car "accepted".

1) The OEM manufacturer must build a minimum of 50 special vehicles like COPO Camaro, Drag Pak or Mustang Cobra Jet. The design must be submitted to NHRA for approval. So, is this me going to the head of Cadillac... or can my dealership do this. What is the process of submittingfor NHRA approval? Per the NHRA rulebook (section 10 - stock)...OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the oficial NHRA Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. In short...the OEM (GM in this case) must build a Proof of Concept race car and get NHRA to approve it. This is what we did with the COPO. There are many requirements based on NHRA "Stock" regulations.

[B]2) The OEM manufacturer must submit the technical specifications for the production vehicle that is sold through the GM dealer network.[B]Please forgive me, I don't want to sound stupid; Do I go to my dealership or to the Cadillac headquarters somewhere and request them to submit the technical specifications. This is something that I do as part of my job responsibilities....assuming my management and the divisional marketing folks are in agreement. In the case of a Cadillac in drag racing....it is not the target market of Cadillac and would probably not get their approval. Chevrolet Camaro is the "brand" chosen to represent GM in drag racing. I think we all can agree that Cadillac has not been in the forefront or on the drag racing sence for sometime now. However, I feel with this car, Cadillac can include drag racing to it's resume and long list of open course racing champions. The car would be used as a promotional and advertising tool locally and nationally at NHRA events. With this new explosure we plan to create a new younger market. A market demanding varity and getting more "Made In the USA." If presented correctly and with the CLASS that Cadillac has always stood for; how could you not allow this combination to become a winner. So, where do we go from here to find this car a CLASS of it's own? If you would like I can put together a presentation and present to your management and marketing teams, if you like. Interest from a dealer would certainly help getting management to consider this but at the same time there are "swim lanes" that the divisions are allowed to play in (you don't see Cadillac in NASCAR or Corvette in Drag Racing) so I think it will be a tough sell especially since it would be very uncompetitive. I would love to see a presentation that shows how a 4170 lb 556 HP CTS-V could be competitive with a 3188 lb 700 HP COPO. Again, I have no idea what you mean by swim lanes. Please explain. My friend who owns the dealership is slowly losing interest because of the red tape that I am having here. This is a 200k project going down the drain. Your HP estimates are way of as far as I'm concerned. I see the LSA engine making 850-900 HP. So, by my estimates I see this car running ET's at 9.637 @ 140.45 mph or faster. I will talk to my engine developer xxxxxx to see what his estimates are and get back to you.

In the case of the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, the engine is rated at 556 HP. It would make for a very uncompetitive vehicle. Why are you suggesting that this would be an non-competitive combination? Isn't the LSA engine that is used in the Cadillac the same engine used in the COOP Camaros? Is this not the same engine that is in the Cagnazzi Team Camaro build, driven by Dave Conley? What are the Camaro's horsepower rated at? On paper, I see this as a very competitive car/engine combo. The way it works in NHRA....the class and weight of the vehicle is proportional to the "rated" HP of the engine. We have a specially designed and build engine (approved as part of the "inclusion" vehicle #1 above) in the COPO Camaro (Cagnazzi-Dave Connolly) rated at 425 HP. In CC/SA class this car weighs 7.5lb/HP or 3188 lbs. The engine (dyno test) makes over 700HP. Your CTS-V with the LSA engine is "rated" at 556 HP. It acually makes 556 HP on the dyno. Your car would weigh (7.5lb/HP x 556HP) 4170 lbs. So you can see that your car 4170 lbs with 556 HP would be no match for Cagnazzi's 3188 lb COPO that makes 700 HP. I have made a huge mistake in assuming that the COPO Camaro and the CTS-V have the same engines. This is untrue. The Camaro that has the LSA engine is the new ZL1 Camaro. So, I'm hoping that if granted approval it would be simpler because, of the CTS-V being a true production car. Would this change the weight break and or class? It is still vehicle weight as a function of rated HP.....the CTS-V would not be competitive at all and would be good exposure for Cadillac.

Thanks again Roger!!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame]

Hope this helps answer at least your first question. Thank you Roger for you quick reply. I am sure to have many questions to come.

Feel free to shoot me back a message if you want to discuss this further.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Mr. Allen,
My name is xxxxxxx, I was given your name and contact information by Bruce Bachelder of the NHRA. He explained to me that you may be the person to assist me, as my project is a member of the GM family. I am inquiring as to how to get a car not currently on the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide accepted.

I am working with a local Cadillac dealership interested in campaigning a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe for NHRA Stock. This will be the first attempt of this kind to build such a car as I am currently putting together our team and engine development program. This car is equipped with the same engine that is used in the COOP Camaros. We fell, that with this sleek, aerodynamic and stealth like body style would be an exciting addition to the new breed of cars currently being offered (i.e. Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs).

I seek your assistance in this matter and look forward to working with you and the NHRA to make this a reality.

Dan Fahey · 06-20-2013, 10:07 PM

Here is marketing opportunity where Ihra can come into play and get the Caddy certified to run in Stock.

jmantle · 06-20-2013, 11:34 PM

Simple solution if NHRA had the balls to do it, tell GM Ford and Chrysler if they want their FX cars allowed in stock, submit the specs for the real stockers to be put in the guide as well. For those who can't afford a factory race car, you can build an affordable stocker from a 80's/90's Mustang, Camaro, Malibu, Dakota PU or what ever. 10 / 20 years from now, non of those opportunities are going to exist.

Jim Mantle V/SA 68

GUMP · 06-21-2013, 12:00 AM

There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

Bobby DiDomenico · 06-21-2013, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

But it is his money. If wishes to attempt it, with a real car, why stop him?
I remember when great friends of mine and part one of the nicest families you'll meet, Tom Rix, (Ok, Carol Rix might have been a bit skeptical) said he was going to see if a Buick could run in Top Stock...

442OLDS · 06-21-2013, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

I don't think a 1970 Olds 442 Convertible would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination nowadays either,but I know somebody that still races one.

ALMACK · 06-21-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

Why ?
Just curious.

zracer305 · 06-21-2013, 02:00 PM

This is the killer statement for me.

"We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan."

GM wants no competition for the new Camaro. The Cadillac 2013 CTS-V would blow the doors off that Camaro and they know it.

Chime in Gump!!!

04-28-2012, 01:18 PM	#2
H Hoover Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 82 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide This economy has been sinking for a solid 4 years now. Maybe thats why no one is at the races. Everybody is broke. I don't go as much as I would like because I have to work 7 days a week to make ends meet. Maybe a lot of you guys who race are retired and can afford to smell the nitro. At the very least these new cars are something to talk about.....

06-20-2013, 03:43 PM	#3
zracer305 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide Gentlemen, For those of you who think more and new cars are the answer for Stock Eliminator is the answer please read on. I am fully convinced that GM and the NHRA do not want any competition for the new Camaro. I had plans to build a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V that is not on the NHRA approved list. When I looked into getting it approved I was shot down by GM. Please read the emails between myself, NHRA and GM below. Start at the bottom and read up to make better sense. GM comments are in bold. From my engine develpoer: xxxxxxxl, trying to fight NHRA, is bad enough, NHRA and GM, i do not think there is any hope, as i said when we talked , a cadilac would for sure be a novel car to race in GT, there are variety of engine combos that would work including some of the new GM crate engines, think about it if you feel you are interested let me know To my engine developer, Wow!!! I guess he told me. Looks like unless you are building a new Camaro for stock you can't play. I'd expect this from NHRA but, this is GM talking. I've got the nerve to build it anyway and run IHRA. I guess we will just have to agree to dis-agree in regards to HP potential of the LSA engine in NHRA "stock" eliminator configuration. Regardless....it doesn't change anyting. I hope I can save the Cadillac dealer from investing $200K in a bad plan. What I was trying to explain relative to "swim lanes" was how we divide up our brand markets. In motorsports, Cadillac uses Road Racing where competitors complete (Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) to promote their vehicles and generate leads with potential customers. Chevrolet uses NASCAR (Toyota, Ford), and Drag Racing (Toyota, Ford, Dodge) to promote their vehicles. We have invested significant resources in building and promoting Camaro in NHRA. We each have a "lane" that is used to market our vehicles to the desired customer base. We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan. Great to see you are so enthusiastic about Cadillac and Drag Racing. Unfortunately....there is not any "Stock Eliminator" classes that would allow the CTS-V to be competitive and therefore have positive exposure. See my responses below. Good aftenoon Roger, Again thank you for responding so quickly. I have asked a few more questions, this time in Green. Good questions xxxxxx See below. Hi xxxxx....sounds like you like a challenge. For a vehicle to be run in NHRA Stock Eliminator category....there are 2 separate ways to get a car "accepted". 1) The OEM manufacturer must build a minimum of 50 special vehicles like COPO Camaro, Drag Pak or Mustang Cobra Jet. The design must be submitted to NHRA for approval. So, is this me going to the head of Cadillac... or can my dealership do this. What is the process of submittingfor NHRA approval? Per the NHRA rulebook (section 10 - stock)...OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the oficial NHRA Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. In short...the OEM (GM in this case) must build a Proof of Concept race car and get NHRA to approve it. This is what we did with the COPO. There are many requirements based on NHRA "Stock" regulations. [B]2) The OEM manufacturer must submit the technical specifications for the production vehicle that is sold through the GM dealer network.[B]Please forgive me, I don't want to sound stupid; Do I go to my dealership or to the Cadillac headquarters somewhere and request them to submit the technical specifications. This is something that I do as part of my job responsibilities....assuming my management and the divisional marketing folks are in agreement. In the case of a Cadillac in drag racing....it is not the target market of Cadillac and would probably not get their approval. Chevrolet Camaro is the "brand" chosen to represent GM in drag racing. I think we all can agree that Cadillac has not been in the forefront or on the drag racing sence for sometime now. However, I feel with this car, Cadillac can include drag racing to it's resume and long list of open course racing champions. The car would be used as a promotional and advertising tool locally and nationally at NHRA events. With this new explosure we plan to create a new younger market. A market demanding varity and getting more "Made In the USA." If presented correctly and with the CLASS that Cadillac has always stood for; how could you not allow this combination to become a winner. So, where do we go from here to find this car a CLASS of it's own? If you would like I can put together a presentation and present to your management and marketing teams, if you like. Interest from a dealer would certainly help getting management to consider this but at the same time there are "swim lanes" that the divisions are allowed to play in (you don't see Cadillac in NASCAR or Corvette in Drag Racing) so I think it will be a tough sell especially since it would be very uncompetitive. I would love to see a presentation that shows how a 4170 lb 556 HP CTS-V could be competitive with a 3188 lb 700 HP COPO. Again, I have no idea what you mean by swim lanes. Please explain. My friend who owns the dealership is slowly losing interest because of the red tape that I am having here. This is a 200k project going down the drain. Your HP estimates are way of as far as I'm concerned. I see the LSA engine making 850-900 HP. So, by my estimates I see this car running ET's at 9.637 @ 140.45 mph or faster. I will talk to my engine developer xxxxxx to see what his estimates are and get back to you. In the case of the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, the engine is rated at 556 HP. It would make for a very uncompetitive vehicle. Why are you suggesting that this would be an non-competitive combination? Isn't the LSA engine that is used in the Cadillac the same engine used in the COOP Camaros? Is this not the same engine that is in the Cagnazzi Team Camaro build, driven by Dave Conley? What are the Camaro's horsepower rated at? On paper, I see this as a very competitive car/engine combo. The way it works in NHRA....the class and weight of the vehicle is proportional to the "rated" HP of the engine. We have a specially designed and build engine (approved as part of the "inclusion" vehicle #1 above) in the COPO Camaro (Cagnazzi-Dave Connolly) rated at 425 HP. In CC/SA class this car weighs 7.5lb/HP or 3188 lbs. The engine (dyno test) makes over 700HP. Your CTS-V with the LSA engine is "rated" at 556 HP. It acually makes 556 HP on the dyno. Your car would weigh (7.5lb/HP x 556HP) 4170 lbs. So you can see that your car 4170 lbs with 556 HP would be no match for Cagnazzi's 3188 lb COPO that makes 700 HP. I have made a huge mistake in assuming that the COPO Camaro and the CTS-V have the same engines. This is untrue. The Camaro that has the LSA engine is the new ZL1 Camaro. So, I'm hoping that if granted approval it would be simpler because, of the CTS-V being a true production car. Would this change the weight break and or class? It is still vehicle weight as a function of rated HP.....the CTS-V would not be competitive at all and would be good exposure for Cadillac. Thanks again Roger!!! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame] Hope this helps answer at least your first question. Thank you Roger for you quick reply. I am sure to have many questions to come. Feel free to shoot me back a message if you want to discuss this further. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Mr. Allen, My name is xxxxxxx, I was given your name and contact information by Bruce Bachelder of the NHRA. He explained to me that you may be the person to assist me, as my project is a member of the GM family. I am inquiring as to how to get a car not currently on the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide accepted. I am working with a local Cadillac dealership interested in campaigning a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe for NHRA Stock. This will be the first attempt of this kind to build such a car as I am currently putting together our team and engine development program. This car is equipped with the same engine that is used in the COOP Camaros. We fell, that with this sleek, aerodynamic and stealth like body style would be an exciting addition to the new breed of cars currently being offered (i.e. Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs). I seek your assistance in this matter and look forward to working with you and the NHRA to make this a reality.

06-20-2013, 10:07 PM	#4
Dan Fahey VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,128 Likes: 1,084 Liked 184 Times in 113 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide Here is marketing opportunity where Ihra can come into play and get the Caddy certified to run in Stock.

06-20-2013, 11:34 PM	#5
jmantle Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Black Creek, BC Canada Posts: 331 Likes: 79 Liked 172 Times in 81 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide Simple solution if NHRA had the balls to do it, tell GM Ford and Chrysler if they want their FX cars allowed in stock, submit the specs for the real stockers to be put in the guide as well. For those who can't afford a factory race car, you can build an affordable stocker from a 80's/90's Mustang, Camaro, Malibu, Dakota PU or what ever. 10 / 20 years from now, non of those opportunities are going to exist. Jim Mantle V/SA 68

06-21-2013, 12:00 AM	#6
GUMP VIP Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Shelby, NC Posts: 1,823 Likes: 2,168 Liked 2,354 Times in 554 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

06-21-2013, 02:00 PM	#10
zracer305 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide This is the killer statement for me. "We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan." GM wants no competition for the new Camaro. The Cadillac 2013 CTS-V would blow the doors off that Camaro and they know it. Chime in Gump!!!