2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide

davidhuff · 04-28-2012, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RULER

If you want to compare OLD vers NEW look at the 427/ 425hp L72 1969 and then check the spec's on the new copo 427/ 425hp. All these new cars are NOT STOCK ELIMINATOR CARS PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!

I am sure you do not like the new COPO ,but NHRA has put them in the classguide and they are hear to stay whether you like it are not.I think the new cars will put a few more young fans in the stands and that will be good for NHRA Drag Racing.

RULER · 04-28-2012, 03:02 AM

Next time your at a national event go look in stands for that young crowd, my bet it there not at the track yet, note stock normally runs very early in the day or very late sometimes both, and there there for the beer and nitro, check it out

davidhuff · 04-28-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RULER

Next time your at a national event go look in stands for that young crowd, my bet it there not at the track yet, note stock normally runs very early in the day or very late sometimes both, and there there for the beer and nitro, check it out

I agree with you 100% and I do go to at least four national events a year with my 26 year old son.If your assumption is correct nhra stock racing wiil die in a few years.I sure hope not.

Alan Roehrich · 04-28-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhuff

I am sure you do not like the new COPO ,but NHRA has put them in the classguide and they are hear to stay whether you like it are not.I think the new cars will put a few more young fans in the stands and that will be good for NHRA Drag Racing.

As others have said, you're not looking at the fans in the stands. I do. Every time we take either car to the lanes. No, the "new" cars are not bringing young fans to the track or to the classes.

davidhuff · 04-28-2012, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

As others have said, you're not looking at the fans in the stands. I do. Every time we take either car to the lanes. No, the "new" cars are not bringing young fans to the track or to the classes.

The only way to to bring new young racers and new young fans to the sport of drag racing we all love is to bring more new cars into the nhra classguide.My 26 old son and his friends could give a dam about a rust bucket 1969 camaro.lol

KRatcliff · 04-28-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhuff

The only way to to bring new young racers and new young fans to the sport of drag racing we all love is to bring more new cars into the nhra classguide.My 26 old son and his friends could give a dam about a rust bucket 1969 camaro.lol

Maybe, but I think the best way to get new fans into racing is one at a time. Bring a neighborhood kid to the races or a test and tune. Play big brother for a day. Let them ride with you during the warm up and to the lanes. The bug will bite them hard.

Just seeing the cars doesn't have the tangible impact that sitting in the car, hearing and feeling the rumble happens to have. Whop the throttle a time or two to really drive home the message. It will have a huge impact on your guest.

One of my clients attended a race to help me on a Make a Wish event I did for a boy. She got hooked! I did all of the above and she is a regular at the races. She even brings or sends cookies! Can't get any better than that.

davidhuff · 04-28-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

Maybe, but I think the best way to get new fans into racing is one at a time. Bring a neighborhood kid to the races or a test and tune. Play big brother for a day. Let them ride with you during the warm up and to the lanes. The bug will bite them hard.

Just seeing the cars doesn't have the tangible impact that sitting in the car, hearing and feeling the rumble happens to have. Whop the throttle a time or two to really drive home the message. It will have a huge impact on your guest.

One of my clients attended a race to help me on a Make a Wish event I did for a boy. She got hooked! I did all of the above and she is a regular at the races. She even brings or sends cookies! Can't get any better than that.

I could not agree more with your message.When I take my son I always invite his friends to come with us and they all seem to love it once they understand just how hard the sportsman racer works to just get to the race.The Sportsman Racer Is NHRA!

H Hoover · 04-28-2012, 01:18 PM

This economy has been sinking for a solid 4 years now. Maybe thats why no one is at the races. Everybody is broke. I don't go as much as I would like because I have to work 7 days a week to make ends meet. Maybe a lot of you guys who race are retired and can afford to smell the nitro.

At the very least these new cars are something to talk about.....

zracer305 · 06-20-2013, 03:43 PM

Gentlemen,
For those of you who think more and new cars are the answer for Stock Eliminator is the answer please read on. I am fully convinced that GM and the NHRA do not want any competition for the new Camaro. I had plans to build a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V that is not on the NHRA approved list. When I looked into getting it approved I was shot down by GM. Please read the emails between myself, NHRA and GM below. Start at the bottom and read up to make better sense. GM comments are in bold.

From my engine develpoer:

xxxxxxxl,

trying to fight NHRA, is bad enough, NHRA and GM, i do not think there is any hope, as i said when we talked , a cadilac would for sure be a novel car to race in GT, there are variety of engine combos that would work including some of the new GM crate engines, think about it if you feel you are interested let me know

To my engine developer,

Wow!!! I guess he told me.

Looks like unless you are building a new Camaro for stock you can't play. I'd expect this from NHRA but, this is GM talking. I've got the nerve to build it anyway and run IHRA.

I guess we will just have to agree to dis-agree in regards to HP potential of the LSA engine in NHRA "stock" eliminator configuration. Regardless....it doesn't change anyting. I hope I can save the Cadillac dealer from investing $200K in a bad plan.

What I was trying to explain relative to "swim lanes" was how we divide up our brand markets. In motorsports, Cadillac uses Road Racing where competitors complete (Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) to promote their vehicles and generate leads with potential customers.

Chevrolet uses NASCAR (Toyota, Ford), and Drag Racing (Toyota, Ford, Dodge) to promote their vehicles. We have invested significant resources in building and promoting Camaro in NHRA. We each have a "lane" that is used to market our vehicles to the desired customer base.

We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation.

Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan.

Great to see you are so enthusiastic about Cadillac and Drag Racing. Unfortunately....there is not any "Stock Eliminator" classes that would allow the CTS-V to be competitive and therefore have positive exposure.

See my responses below.

Good aftenoon Roger,
Again thank you for responding so quickly. I have asked a few more questions, this time in Green.

Good questions xxxxxx

See below.

Hi xxxxx....sounds like you like a challenge.

For a vehicle to be run in NHRA Stock Eliminator category....there are 2 separate ways to get a car "accepted".

1) The OEM manufacturer must build a minimum of 50 special vehicles like COPO Camaro, Drag Pak or Mustang Cobra Jet. The design must be submitted to NHRA for approval. So, is this me going to the head of Cadillac... or can my dealership do this. What is the process of submittingfor NHRA approval? Per the NHRA rulebook (section 10 - stock)...OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the oficial NHRA Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. In short...the OEM (GM in this case) must build a Proof of Concept race car and get NHRA to approve it. This is what we did with the COPO. There are many requirements based on NHRA "Stock" regulations.

[B]2) The OEM manufacturer must submit the technical specifications for the production vehicle that is sold through the GM dealer network.[B]Please forgive me, I don't want to sound stupid; Do I go to my dealership or to the Cadillac headquarters somewhere and request them to submit the technical specifications. This is something that I do as part of my job responsibilities....assuming my management and the divisional marketing folks are in agreement. In the case of a Cadillac in drag racing....it is not the target market of Cadillac and would probably not get their approval. Chevrolet Camaro is the "brand" chosen to represent GM in drag racing. I think we all can agree that Cadillac has not been in the forefront or on the drag racing sence for sometime now. However, I feel with this car, Cadillac can include drag racing to it's resume and long list of open course racing champions. The car would be used as a promotional and advertising tool locally and nationally at NHRA events. With this new explosure we plan to create a new younger market. A market demanding varity and getting more "Made In the USA." If presented correctly and with the CLASS that Cadillac has always stood for; how could you not allow this combination to become a winner. So, where do we go from here to find this car a CLASS of it's own? If you would like I can put together a presentation and present to your management and marketing teams, if you like. Interest from a dealer would certainly help getting management to consider this but at the same time there are "swim lanes" that the divisions are allowed to play in (you don't see Cadillac in NASCAR or Corvette in Drag Racing) so I think it will be a tough sell especially since it would be very uncompetitive. I would love to see a presentation that shows how a 4170 lb 556 HP CTS-V could be competitive with a 3188 lb 700 HP COPO. Again, I have no idea what you mean by swim lanes. Please explain. My friend who owns the dealership is slowly losing interest because of the red tape that I am having here. This is a 200k project going down the drain. Your HP estimates are way of as far as I'm concerned. I see the LSA engine making 850-900 HP. So, by my estimates I see this car running ET's at 9.637 @ 140.45 mph or faster. I will talk to my engine developer xxxxxx to see what his estimates are and get back to you.

In the case of the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, the engine is rated at 556 HP. It would make for a very uncompetitive vehicle. Why are you suggesting that this would be an non-competitive combination? Isn't the LSA engine that is used in the Cadillac the same engine used in the COOP Camaros? Is this not the same engine that is in the Cagnazzi Team Camaro build, driven by Dave Conley? What are the Camaro's horsepower rated at? On paper, I see this as a very competitive car/engine combo. The way it works in NHRA....the class and weight of the vehicle is proportional to the "rated" HP of the engine. We have a specially designed and build engine (approved as part of the "inclusion" vehicle #1 above) in the COPO Camaro (Cagnazzi-Dave Connolly) rated at 425 HP. In CC/SA class this car weighs 7.5lb/HP or 3188 lbs. The engine (dyno test) makes over 700HP. Your CTS-V with the LSA engine is "rated" at 556 HP. It acually makes 556 HP on the dyno. Your car would weigh (7.5lb/HP x 556HP) 4170 lbs. So you can see that your car 4170 lbs with 556 HP would be no match for Cagnazzi's 3188 lb COPO that makes 700 HP. I have made a huge mistake in assuming that the COPO Camaro and the CTS-V have the same engines. This is untrue. The Camaro that has the LSA engine is the new ZL1 Camaro. So, I'm hoping that if granted approval it would be simpler because, of the CTS-V being a true production car. Would this change the weight break and or class? It is still vehicle weight as a function of rated HP.....the CTS-V would not be competitive at all and would be good exposure for Cadillac.

Thanks again Roger!!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame]

Hope this helps answer at least your first question. Thank you Roger for you quick reply. I am sure to have many questions to come.

Feel free to shoot me back a message if you want to discuss this further.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Mr. Allen,
My name is xxxxxxx, I was given your name and contact information by Bruce Bachelder of the NHRA. He explained to me that you may be the person to assist me, as my project is a member of the GM family. I am inquiring as to how to get a car not currently on the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide accepted.

I am working with a local Cadillac dealership interested in campaigning a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe for NHRA Stock. This will be the first attempt of this kind to build such a car as I am currently putting together our team and engine development program. This car is equipped with the same engine that is used in the COOP Camaros. We fell, that with this sleek, aerodynamic and stealth like body style would be an exciting addition to the new breed of cars currently being offered (i.e. Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs).

I seek your assistance in this matter and look forward to working with you and the NHRA to make this a reality.

Alan Roehrich · 04-28-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhuff

The only way to to bring new young racers and new young fans to the sport of drag racing we all love is to bring more new cars into the nhra classguide.My 26 old son and his friends could give a dam about a rust bucket 1969 camaro.lol

New cars have come into the class guide every year for decades.

The new fuel injected cars, with relatively soft factors, have been in the class since 1999, that's how we ended up with the FI classes for several years. If your son and his two friends haven't gotten interested by now, they never will be. Any of the 3 of them building a new factory car with a give away factor? I thought not.

If you haven't figured it out, it is about the entire class, as it works, as a whole, and not about any one car. No car is going to get anyone interested, or save the class.

In order to be of any use to Stock and Super Stock, as a fan or a competitor, you have to understand how the classes work, and want to compete or watch on that basis. You have to love the classes for what they are and what they mean. If all you're looking for is an absurdly soft factor, or the car of the week, you'll be gone soon enough, and no one will miss you, or even remember who you are.

I'm sure the guys with the 70 Challengers and 68 Mustang Super Cobra Jets, among others, are just as broke up as we are that your son and his two friends don't give a damn about our rust bucket cars.Yeah, that would be not at all. We're out there racing, and contributing to the classes. If that's all any of you (you, your son, and his "friends")have as far as love for cars goes (that you don't give a damn about our "rust bucket 69 Camaros), you won't be of any help to class racing.

04-28-2012, 03:02 AM	#2
RULER Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 221 Likes: 15 Liked 58 Times in 18 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide Next time your at a national event go look in stands for that young crowd, my bet it there not at the track yet, note stock normally runs very early in the day or very late sometimes both, and there there for the beer and nitro, check it out

04-28-2012, 01:18 PM	#8
H Hoover Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 82 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide This economy has been sinking for a solid 4 years now. Maybe thats why no one is at the races. Everybody is broke. I don't go as much as I would like because I have to work 7 days a week to make ends meet. Maybe a lot of you guys who race are retired and can afford to smell the nitro. At the very least these new cars are something to talk about.....

06-20-2013, 03:43 PM	#9
zracer305 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 108 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide Gentlemen, For those of you who think more and new cars are the answer for Stock Eliminator is the answer please read on. I am fully convinced that GM and the NHRA do not want any competition for the new Camaro. I had plans to build a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V that is not on the NHRA approved list. When I looked into getting it approved I was shot down by GM. Please read the emails between myself, NHRA and GM below. Start at the bottom and read up to make better sense. GM comments are in bold. From my engine develpoer: xxxxxxxl, trying to fight NHRA, is bad enough, NHRA and GM, i do not think there is any hope, as i said when we talked , a cadilac would for sure be a novel car to race in GT, there are variety of engine combos that would work including some of the new GM crate engines, think about it if you feel you are interested let me know To my engine developer, Wow!!! I guess he told me. Looks like unless you are building a new Camaro for stock you can't play. I'd expect this from NHRA but, this is GM talking. I've got the nerve to build it anyway and run IHRA. I guess we will just have to agree to dis-agree in regards to HP potential of the LSA engine in NHRA "stock" eliminator configuration. Regardless....it doesn't change anyting. I hope I can save the Cadillac dealer from investing $200K in a bad plan. What I was trying to explain relative to "swim lanes" was how we divide up our brand markets. In motorsports, Cadillac uses Road Racing where competitors complete (Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) to promote their vehicles and generate leads with potential customers. Chevrolet uses NASCAR (Toyota, Ford), and Drag Racing (Toyota, Ford, Dodge) to promote their vehicles. We have invested significant resources in building and promoting Camaro in NHRA. We each have a "lane" that is used to market our vehicles to the desired customer base. We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan. Great to see you are so enthusiastic about Cadillac and Drag Racing. Unfortunately....there is not any "Stock Eliminator" classes that would allow the CTS-V to be competitive and therefore have positive exposure. See my responses below. Good aftenoon Roger, Again thank you for responding so quickly. I have asked a few more questions, this time in Green. Good questions xxxxxx See below. Hi xxxxx....sounds like you like a challenge. For a vehicle to be run in NHRA Stock Eliminator category....there are 2 separate ways to get a car "accepted". 1) The OEM manufacturer must build a minimum of 50 special vehicles like COPO Camaro, Drag Pak or Mustang Cobra Jet. The design must be submitted to NHRA for approval. So, is this me going to the head of Cadillac... or can my dealership do this. What is the process of submittingfor NHRA approval? Per the NHRA rulebook (section 10 - stock)...OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the oficial NHRA Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. In short...the OEM (GM in this case) must build a Proof of Concept race car and get NHRA to approve it. This is what we did with the COPO. There are many requirements based on NHRA "Stock" regulations. [B]2) The OEM manufacturer must submit the technical specifications for the production vehicle that is sold through the GM dealer network.[B]Please forgive me, I don't want to sound stupid; Do I go to my dealership or to the Cadillac headquarters somewhere and request them to submit the technical specifications. This is something that I do as part of my job responsibilities....assuming my management and the divisional marketing folks are in agreement. In the case of a Cadillac in drag racing....it is not the target market of Cadillac and would probably not get their approval. Chevrolet Camaro is the "brand" chosen to represent GM in drag racing. I think we all can agree that Cadillac has not been in the forefront or on the drag racing sence for sometime now. However, I feel with this car, Cadillac can include drag racing to it's resume and long list of open course racing champions. The car would be used as a promotional and advertising tool locally and nationally at NHRA events. With this new explosure we plan to create a new younger market. A market demanding varity and getting more "Made In the USA." If presented correctly and with the CLASS that Cadillac has always stood for; how could you not allow this combination to become a winner. So, where do we go from here to find this car a CLASS of it's own? If you would like I can put together a presentation and present to your management and marketing teams, if you like. Interest from a dealer would certainly help getting management to consider this but at the same time there are "swim lanes" that the divisions are allowed to play in (you don't see Cadillac in NASCAR or Corvette in Drag Racing) so I think it will be a tough sell especially since it would be very uncompetitive. I would love to see a presentation that shows how a 4170 lb 556 HP CTS-V could be competitive with a 3188 lb 700 HP COPO. Again, I have no idea what you mean by swim lanes. Please explain. My friend who owns the dealership is slowly losing interest because of the red tape that I am having here. This is a 200k project going down the drain. Your HP estimates are way of as far as I'm concerned. I see the LSA engine making 850-900 HP. So, by my estimates I see this car running ET's at 9.637 @ 140.45 mph or faster. I will talk to my engine developer xxxxxx to see what his estimates are and get back to you. In the case of the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, the engine is rated at 556 HP. It would make for a very uncompetitive vehicle. Why are you suggesting that this would be an non-competitive combination? Isn't the LSA engine that is used in the Cadillac the same engine used in the COOP Camaros? Is this not the same engine that is in the Cagnazzi Team Camaro build, driven by Dave Conley? What are the Camaro's horsepower rated at? On paper, I see this as a very competitive car/engine combo. The way it works in NHRA....the class and weight of the vehicle is proportional to the "rated" HP of the engine. We have a specially designed and build engine (approved as part of the "inclusion" vehicle #1 above) in the COPO Camaro (Cagnazzi-Dave Connolly) rated at 425 HP. In CC/SA class this car weighs 7.5lb/HP or 3188 lbs. The engine (dyno test) makes over 700HP. Your CTS-V with the LSA engine is "rated" at 556 HP. It acually makes 556 HP on the dyno. Your car would weigh (7.5lb/HP x 556HP) 4170 lbs. So you can see that your car 4170 lbs with 556 HP would be no match for Cagnazzi's 3188 lb COPO that makes 700 HP. I have made a huge mistake in assuming that the COPO Camaro and the CTS-V have the same engines. This is untrue. The Camaro that has the LSA engine is the new ZL1 Camaro. So, I'm hoping that if granted approval it would be simpler because, of the CTS-V being a true production car. Would this change the weight break and or class? It is still vehicle weight as a function of rated HP.....the CTS-V would not be competitive at all and would be good exposure for Cadillac. Thanks again Roger!!! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame] Hope this helps answer at least your first question. Thank you Roger for you quick reply. I am sure to have many questions to come. Feel free to shoot me back a message if you want to discuss this further. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Mr. Allen, My name is xxxxxxx, I was given your name and contact information by Bruce Bachelder of the NHRA. He explained to me that you may be the person to assist me, as my project is a member of the GM family. I am inquiring as to how to get a car not currently on the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide accepted. I am working with a local Cadillac dealership interested in campaigning a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe for NHRA Stock. This will be the first attempt of this kind to build such a car as I am currently putting together our team and engine development program. This car is equipped with the same engine that is used in the COOP Camaros. We fell, that with this sleek, aerodynamic and stealth like body style would be an exciting addition to the new breed of cars currently being offered (i.e. Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs). I seek your assistance in this matter and look forward to working with you and the NHRA to make this a reality.