Consolidating Classes

[Jim Wahl]

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

[Owen S Quirion]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

I never said anything about gears. But, I'm guessing when you need gears no one makes, you get people together and have them made, like the RWD guys do, the 4.75 and 5.00 gears for 12 bolt Chevy, or 5.57 for Dana 60, for example. Go find yourself a sharp transmission guy, and someone with a gear shaper, and change the ratios in your transmission. Someone will make lower gear sets for you.

Again, there is data out there to quantify the average FWD ET just like there is for the RWD cars. If you can quantify an average ET, you can calculate a weight break to put a car in the class it belongs in. It still does not matter what end the slicks are on. You can change the HP rating, or you can use a factor to multiply or divide whatever number you need to use in order to calculate the weight break.

I don't need a physics refresher, Owen, I know all about weight transfer. The exact same laws of physics apply, they just don't work in favor of the FWD cars, I never said they did, you just assumed I did. You can get springs, struts, shocks, or anything else like that made, just like the RWD cars do. The people that make parts for RWD cars will make them for your FWD car, your money spends just exactly like ours does. They can buy the same gas and groceries with your money they can with anyone elses. you can use shock valving and spring rates to slow or prevent weight transfer just like the RWD cars can use it to improve weight transfer.

[Owen S Quirion]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I never said anything about gears. But, I'm guessing when you need gears no one makes, you get people together and have them made, like the RWD guys do, the 4.75 and 5.00 gears for 12 bolt Chevy, or 5.57 for Dana 60, for example. Go find yourself a sharp transmission guy, and someone with a gear shaper, and change the ratios in your transmission. Someone will make lower gear sets for you.

Again, there is data out there to quantify the average FWD ET just like there is for the RWD cars. If you can quantify an average ET, you can calculate a weight break to put a car in the class it belongs in. It still does not matter what end the slicks are on. You can change the HP rating, or you can use a factor to multiply or divide whatever number you need to use in order to calculate the weight break.

I don't need a physics refresher, Owen, I know all about weight transfer. The exact same laws of physics apply, they just don't work in favor of the FWD cars, I never said they did, you just assumed I did. You can get springs, struts, shocks, or anything else like that made, just like the RWD cars do. The people that make parts for RWD cars will make them for your FWD car, your money spends just exactly like ours does. They can buy the same gas and groceries with your money they can with anyone elses. you can use shock valving and spring rates to slow or prevent weight transfer just like the RWD cars can use it to improve weight transfer.

Alan, I guess a little more free schoolin' is in order. I built my own gears many years ago to give myself a 4.14 ratio, and I hate to even mention it because you should already know but there is no differential in these like a RWD. so it is not quite as simple as making a ring and pinion. That would be childs play. Strut valving done long ago and yes they are valved opposite of a RWD. I built the car for the challenges and I'm pretty clever, no need to suggest that I don't understand how it's done. You'd be quite a ways off base.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, I guess a little more free schoolin' is in order. I built my own gears many years ago to give myself a 4.14 ratio, and I hate to even mention it because you should already know but there is no differential in these like a RWD. so it is not quite as simple as making a ring and pinion. That would be childs play. Strut valving done long ago and yes they are valved opposite of a RWD. I built the car for the challenges and I'm pretty clever, no need to suggest that I don't understand how it's done. You'd be quite a ways off base.

I don't think you'll be "schooling" me any time soon. I never suggested you do not know how to do it. I used to build FWD transmissions for a living, so I know what's in them. The Chryslers, for example, do have a "ring and pinion" of sorts. And yes, I know how the finals of the GM stuff work. They ALL have a differential, Owen, or they'd never go around a corner (there's your "free schooling", a little bonus just for you). They started life as street cars, if the front was locked, you couldn't drive it. It's not as simple, in a way. But the flip side is you could actually not only change ratios, but also go to a straight cut gear set to cut down on end loading. It's easier to find someone with a shaper to make sets of spur gears than it is to find someone with the machinery capable of a hypoid ring and pinion.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

Well said Owen, but much to our dismay M/T no longer makes the 20" tall slicks...the 8" wide ones were sold out, and I bought two of the last 3 slicks that M/T had in their online "Garage Sale" section, this past summer (unless the mail order folks have large enough quantities of them for our benefit?). When those wear out, I'm going to have to start using the D.O.T. 22" or "24" tires they have available, or change my wheel size to use other slick sizes that might fit, from Goodyear, or M&H?

[Dennis P Chapman]

Originally Posted by GarysZ24

Well said Owen, but much to our dismay M/T no longer makes the 20" tall slicks...the 8" wide ones were sold out, and I bought two of the last 3 slicks that M/T had in their online "Garage Sale" section, this past summer (unless the mail order folks have large enough quantities of them for our benefit?). When those wear out, I'm going to have to start using the D.O.T. 22" or "24" tires they have available, or change my wheel size to use other slick sizes that might fit, from Goodyear, or M&H?

Hey Gary
You want to sell those 20" tires Lol.

[Billy Nees]

Dennis, back in the old days, Goodyear made some 6"x 20" Formula Vee tires that worked fine on the Sunbird. They were a 13' rim size though. They weren't listed in the Drag Tire catalog though. Might try to find a Road Racing cat. or maybe they have a websight?

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Dennis P Chapman

Hey Gary
You want to sell those 20" tires Lol.

I might have to consider it Dennis, but like someone else said, I like these tires because they fit my lightweight Cragar (14" X 8") wheels. I'll have to buy bigger or smaller wheels in order to use those sizes that Billy spoke of here, and I'm not ready to do that yet. So I'll wear these out, and go from there.

However, one reason I'm lookin forward to the different sized tires is by going at least 2" taller, I'll be able to stop having to change over from taller trailer fitting tires, to being able to go to the races ready to unload the car, and head right to tech...at 52 I;m not much of a spring chicken anymore...lol!!!