How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock

X-TECH MAN · 01-10-2010, 08:49 AM

Heh heh....Go ahead Drooze......HAMMER that Mo Fo for all its worth. I just hope it passes teard down....Oh wait.....NHRA will factor you and the rest anyway even without tear down. Lets see how fast those package cars will really run and while we are at it lets see some Ford racers with "Balls" in the 2008 and 2010 Mustangs do the same thing. Its the ONLY way the AHFS will work.

GUMP · 01-10-2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Heh heh....Go ahead Drooze......HAMMER that Mo Fo for all its worth. I just hope it passes teard down....Oh wait.....NHRA will factor you and the rest anyway even without tear down. Lets see how fast those package cars will really run and while we are at it lets see some Ford racers with "Balls" in the 2008 and 2010 Mustangs do the same thing. Its the ONLY way the AHFS will work.

Why just the new cars? The only way the AHFS will work is if everyone goes wide open.

X-TECH MAN · 01-10-2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

Why just the new cars? The only way the AHFS will work is if everyone goes wide open.

Because the new package cars that were NEVER even street legal will ruin the established older muscle cars in the same class with their "Flim Flam" HP ratings. The older combos have been beat on for years. These new combos havent even been maxed out yet.

hemidup · 01-10-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Because the new package cars that were NEVER even street legal will ruin the established older muscle cars in the same class with their "Flim Flam" HP ratings. The older combos have been beat on for years. These new combos havent even been maxed out yet.

What about the 68 Hemi Darts and Cuda's? They weren't street legal either and at one time considered a new car. I also see 10hp was added to the 426 Hemi for 2010. Who back in 68 thought a SS/AH Dart was ever going to run in the 8's?

I wouldn't think these new factory race cars should effect the older muscle cars once NHRA establishes the class/engine average based on the specific engine combo, transmission type and body style. Only time will tell though cause that call will still be at the discretion of NHRA.

Chad Rhodes · 01-10-2010, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemidup

What about the 68 Hemi Darts and Cuda's? They weren't street legal either and at one time considered a new car. I also see 10hp was added to the 426 Hemi for 2010. Who back in 68 thought a SS/AH Dart was ever going to run in the 8's?

I wouldn't think these new factory race cars should effect the older muscle cars once NHRA establishes the class/engine average based on the specific engine combo, transmission type and body style. Only time will tell though cause that call will still be at the discretion of NHRA.

the 68 hemi cars were never in stock, they were in superstock because they weren't street cars. thats what the big gripe is here

X-TECH MAN · 01-10-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemidup

What about the 68 Hemi Darts and Cuda's? They weren't street legal either and at one time considered a new car.
But they NEVER ran STOCK. They went right into SUPER STOCK.

I wouldn't think these new factory race cars should effect the older muscle cars once NHRA establishes the class/engine average based on the specific engine combo, transmission type and body style. .

Yeah.....What Chad Rhodes said and.........................
Yeah right again......LOL. Look how long it took the Fords to get a little HP and it hasent hurt them a bit except now they can not run A/S and A/SA........... Ive got a few Bridges for sale also.

GUMP · 01-10-2010, 03:10 PM

This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway.

In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class.
Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then.
Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

DK FRAZIER · 01-10-2010, 03:21 PM

Drooze.
I guess I will go with B
I see what you are trying to do .
Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !!
Doug

Alan Roehrich · 01-10-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway.

In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class.
Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then.
Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

Darren,
There are light years of difference between those cars you listed from the sixties and the specialty race cars like the Drag Pack and the Cobra Jet. Tell me, exactly how many of those cars from the sixties entered Stock having more HP at the rear wheels with their original untouched factory stock engine than the current record holder in their class had at the flywheel? And yet they were rated at the exact same HP?

hemidup · 01-10-2010, 12:24 PM

I'm sure the new factory race car packages will be under close scrutinization by NHRA at the start of the year. I'm positive that a Ford Mustang or Mopar Challenger will hit the trigger point and probably run fast enough to call for an automatic adjustment. Last year Irv Johns AA/SA Challenger ran 1.16 under (1.15 is the trigger point) and this year with the new index, that would put him 1.13 under the index with the same 9.74 pass. I'm glad Irv didn't run his car in A/SA.

So who will be the first DP to push the supercharged Fords into SS? I know John Force/Robert Hight have their AA/SA Mustang completed and if John gets behind the wheel, you know his right foot will stay planted to the rug.

As far as the Gen III Hemi's are concerned. NHRA will first look at the engine family average. I don't know how many 6.1 SRT Magnum's, Charger's or Chrysler 300 C's are running in stock, but I've seen those 4400-4600lb cars run mid 12's to low 13's with just a CAI and a good tune, plus those cars just got factored 5hp for 2010 for having a 370 cubed Hemi.

Next NHRA will look at the class/engine average. That means they'll look at the Hemi's with the same specific engine combo, transmission type and body style which will only factor the DP cars and not the rest of the cars in that particular class. I don't know what classes the DP will finally end up at after the shuffle, only time will tell.

HP:WT ratio? These DP's aren't as light as some folks figure. In order to make the minimum weight for the class, we figure we only have 320 lbs to work with and the car still needs a cage, full rear end, brakes and suspention, driveshaft, fluids, etc, etc. I'm guessing and this is only a guess as of now, that the finished car should come in between 3400-3450lbs. Given that weight and Drooze gets the 3.25% he's looking for, that'll still put his car at 8.43 at 3400lbs.

01-10-2010, 08:49 AM	#1
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Heh heh....Go ahead Drooze......HAMMER that Mo Fo for all its worth. I just hope it passes teard down....Oh wait.....NHRA will factor you and the rest anyway even without tear down. Lets see how fast those package cars will really run and while we are at it lets see some Ford racers with "Balls" in the 2008 and 2010 Mustangs do the same thing. Its the ONLY way the AHFS will work.

01-10-2010, 03:10 PM	#7
GUMP VIP Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Shelby, NC Posts: 1,829 Likes: 2,183 Liked 2,361 Times in 558 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway. In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class. Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then. Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

01-10-2010, 03:21 PM	#8
DK FRAZIER Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bogart GA Posts: 117 Likes: 2 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Drooze. I guess I will go with B I see what you are trying to do . Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !! Doug __________________ Doug Frazier D/SA 2038

01-10-2010, 12:24 PM	#10
hemidup Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 409 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock I'm sure the new factory race car packages will be under close scrutinization by NHRA at the start of the year. I'm positive that a Ford Mustang or Mopar Challenger will hit the trigger point and probably run fast enough to call for an automatic adjustment. Last year Irv Johns AA/SA Challenger ran 1.16 under (1.15 is the trigger point) and this year with the new index, that would put him 1.13 under the index with the same 9.74 pass. I'm glad Irv didn't run his car in A/SA. So who will be the first DP to push the supercharged Fords into SS? I know John Force/Robert Hight have their AA/SA Mustang completed and if John gets behind the wheel, you know his right foot will stay planted to the rug. As far as the Gen III Hemi's are concerned. NHRA will first look at the engine family average. I don't know how many 6.1 SRT Magnum's, Charger's or Chrysler 300 C's are running in stock, but I've seen those 4400-4600lb cars run mid 12's to low 13's with just a CAI and a good tune, plus those cars just got factored 5hp for 2010 for having a 370 cubed Hemi. Next NHRA will look at the class/engine average. That means they'll look at the Hemi's with the same specific engine combo, transmission type and body style which will only factor the DP cars and not the rest of the cars in that particular class. I don't know what classes the DP will finally end up at after the shuffle, only time will tell. HP:WT ratio? These DP's aren't as light as some folks figure. In order to make the minimum weight for the class, we figure we only have 320 lbs to work with and the car still needs a cage, full rear end, brakes and suspention, driveshaft, fluids, etc, etc. I'm guessing and this is only a guess as of now, that the finished car should come in between 3400-3450lbs. Given that weight and Drooze gets the 3.25% he's looking for, that'll still put his car at 8.43 at 3400lbs.