How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock - Page 7

DK FRAZIER · 01-10-2010, 01:39 PM

Drooze
Fair enough I look foward to reading your plan
Doug

X-TECH MAN · 01-10-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemidup

What about the 68 Hemi Darts and Cuda's? They weren't street legal either and at one time considered a new car.
But they NEVER ran STOCK. They went right into SUPER STOCK.

I wouldn't think these new factory race cars should effect the older muscle cars once NHRA establishes the class/engine average based on the specific engine combo, transmission type and body style. .

Yeah.....What Chad Rhodes said and.........................
Yeah right again......LOL. Look how long it took the Fords to get a little HP and it hasent hurt them a bit except now they can not run A/S and A/SA........... Ive got a few Bridges for sale also.

GUMP · 01-10-2010, 03:10 PM

This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway.

In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class.
Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then.
Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

DK FRAZIER · 01-10-2010, 03:21 PM

Drooze.
I guess I will go with B
I see what you are trying to do .
Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !!
Doug

Alan Roehrich · 01-10-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway.

In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class.
Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then.
Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

Darren,
There are light years of difference between those cars you listed from the sixties and the specialty race cars like the Drag Pack and the Cobra Jet. Tell me, exactly how many of those cars from the sixties entered Stock having more HP at the rear wheels with their original untouched factory stock engine than the current record holder in their class had at the flywheel? And yet they were rated at the exact same HP?

GUMP · 01-10-2010, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Darren,
There are light years of difference between those cars you listed from the sixties and the specialty race cars like the Drag Pack and the Cobra Jet. Tell me, exactly how many of those cars from the sixties entered Stock having more HP at the rear wheels with their original untouched factory stock engine than the current record holder in their class had at the flywheel? And yet they were rated at the exact same HP?

Alan,

I have not once said that these cars are not under rated, but so were a lot of the cars that have been front runners. Especially some of the lower class cars.

My point is that in this day and age a new car should not have to be Federal highway legal to be legal for Stock Eliminator. I am tired of giving away air bags, stereos, aluminum wheels, tires, seats, carpet, wipers, steering, brakes, fuel system, axle assemblies, transmission, computers, wiring harnesses, starter, alternator, heater, etc. because the rules don't require that stuff. I also don't think that having a factor in the classification guide that supports all that junk is fair.

Do me a favor. I am sure you have read my recent post in the 2011 Camaro sticky. Send me a PM of how you think the 2011 Camaro should be submitted.

On a side note. Any chance you can come down and run Top Stock with us this year?

Take Care,

Daren

Alan Roehrich · 01-10-2010, 04:42 PM

Daren,
Regular production street legal is the whole basis for the class. Seriously, for the entire life of the class, being able to buy the car and drive it home is a big part of the spirit of the class. Changing that changes the whole idea behind the class, and opens a massive can of worms.

I understand what you're saying about all of the equipment you can remove, and the weight that goes with it. But if the price of solving that problem is letting bogus ringers into the class, then the price is just too high.

I do not really know a great deal about how to submit a car to NHRA, but I'll give it some thought.

Everything belongs to Kevin, so while I have some input, it is mostly limited to the car itself and that part of the program. Kevin makes the decisions on where we go and when, with a little input from me, but not much. However, we're pretty much of the same opinion as Arnold, we'd prefer to see more 1/4 mile Top Stock. Kevin is considering some IHRA races, we'll see what happens.

Jim Bailey · 01-10-2010, 04:43 PM

Gump: let's look at it as - the glass is half full, instead of half empty. ( That was until last year...) There are plenty of things "Stock" about Stock Eliminator. The major thing was you could buy the car off the showroom floor, put plates on it and drive it home. Until last year, if you couldn't do that ...it was a Super Stocker- plain and simple. I have no problem with Showroom Mustangs, Showroom Challengers, Showroom Camaros, or Showroom anything being spec'd out and running Stock... Purpose Built Cars.. That.. I have a problem with. They are Superstockers OR if you're going to allow them in Stock, give them their own class. For example (one example); someone answer this simple queston - How far further back is the location of the Engine in the Drag Pack Challenger than a Showroom Challenger? JB

Chris "drooze" Wertman · 01-10-2010, 05:08 PM

3)You post back to this thread your general impression although not the details but one of the 3 opinions listed here, a)Hogwash and the raving of a lunatic b)The plan has potential c)Its genius and I should abandon racing and buy an evil genius lair

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK FRAZIER

Drooze.
I guess I will go with B
I see what you are trying to do .
Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !!
Doug

Thanks Ill take B....thats what I was gunning for...but it was a trick question, as any of those 3 answers would have been Ok with us

But B is good I can work with B...

But A to C was an easy path too

Thanks

Chris

JMatt · 01-10-2010, 05:10 PM

This thread amazes me.

I've read a ton of threads here from the "Class Racing Establishment" about the downfall of class racing. Seems that two reasons are given: 1) lack of new people; 2) new factory ringer cars with underrated engines.

So you guys attack a guy wanting to build a new car and actually RACE it an entire 1320 feet? Wouldn't that start adjusting the HP factor right away? Isn't that how the system works?

And then the other DP guys get on board begging him to ALSO be a sandbagger (cheater)? If you have a HP advantage that's unfair, and you continually race to 1000' then bag the race in order to maintain your unfair advantage - you're a cheater. So apparently 98 DP owners are cheaters.

And everyone who isn't a DP owner on this thread is bashing Drooze for having an unfair advantage AND telling him they hope he has some "respect" for other racers and doesn't run his car out the backdoor so everyone can keep their unfair advantage.

WTF?

Do all you non-DP racers want the DP cars to have an unfair advantage or not?

If you're not careful, all your 1963-1973 S/SS cars will be stuck racing at nothing but Goodguys events for no money, no recognition, and no fans, at 6 events a year. Or you can take them all bracket racing. That's all you're doing anyway except when you're sandbagging (cheating) to maintain an index.

How many of you are new to this in the last 10 years? That's right. No new blood = death of class racing. And this clique sure isn't very open to any neew blood. Let's see how many guys who've know each other and been racing since the 60's jump all over me for this post.

Any side bets?

Change your attitude toward new cars and new racers or live with the results. You'll be to blame.

01-10-2010, 01:39 PM	#61
DK FRAZIER Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bogart GA Posts: 117 Likes: 2 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Drooze Fair enough I look foward to reading your plan Doug __________________ Doug Frazier D/SA 2038

01-10-2010, 03:10 PM	#63
GUMP VIP Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Shelby, NC Posts: 1,829 Likes: 2,183 Liked 2,361 Times in 558 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway. In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class. Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then. Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

01-10-2010, 03:21 PM	#64
DK FRAZIER Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bogart GA Posts: 117 Likes: 2 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Drooze. I guess I will go with B I see what you are trying to do . Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !! Doug __________________ Doug Frazier D/SA 2038

01-10-2010, 04:42 PM	#67
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,133 Likes: 1,605 Liked 1,915 Times in 430 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Daren, Regular production street legal is the whole basis for the class. Seriously, for the entire life of the class, being able to buy the car and drive it home is a big part of the spirit of the class. Changing that changes the whole idea behind the class, and opens a massive can of worms. I understand what you're saying about all of the equipment you can remove, and the weight that goes with it. But if the price of solving that problem is letting bogus ringers into the class, then the price is just too high. I do not really know a great deal about how to submit a car to NHRA, but I'll give it some thought. Everything belongs to Kevin, so while I have some input, it is mostly limited to the car itself and that part of the program. Kevin makes the decisions on where we go and when, with a little input from me, but not much. However, we're pretty much of the same opinion as Arnold, we'd prefer to see more 1/4 mile Top Stock. Kevin is considering some IHRA races, we'll see what happens. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

01-10-2010, 04:43 PM	#68
Jim Bailey Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 674 Likes: 15 Liked 584 Times in 94 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock Gump: let's look at it as - the glass is half full, instead of half empty. ( That was until last year...) There are plenty of things "Stock" about Stock Eliminator. The major thing was you could buy the car off the showroom floor, put plates on it and drive it home. Until last year, if you couldn't do that ...it was a Super Stocker- plain and simple. I have no problem with Showroom Mustangs, Showroom Challengers, Showroom Camaros, or Showroom anything being spec'd out and running Stock... Purpose Built Cars.. That.. I have a problem with. They are Superstockers OR if you're going to allow them in Stock, give them their own class. For example (one example); someone answer this simple queston - How far further back is the location of the Engine in the Drag Pack Challenger than a Showroom Challenger? JB

01-10-2010, 05:10 PM	#70
JMatt Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 87 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock This thread amazes me. I've read a ton of threads here from the "Class Racing Establishment" about the downfall of class racing. Seems that two reasons are given: 1) lack of new people; 2) new factory ringer cars with underrated engines. So you guys attack a guy wanting to build a new car and actually RACE it an entire 1320 feet? Wouldn't that start adjusting the HP factor right away? Isn't that how the system works? And then the other DP guys get on board begging him to ALSO be a sandbagger (cheater)? If you have a HP advantage that's unfair, and you continually race to 1000' then bag the race in order to maintain your unfair advantage - you're a cheater. So apparently 98 DP owners are cheaters. And everyone who isn't a DP owner on this thread is bashing Drooze for having an unfair advantage AND telling him they hope he has some "respect" for other racers and doesn't run his car out the backdoor so everyone can keep their unfair advantage. WTF? Do all you non-DP racers want the DP cars to have an unfair advantage or not? If you're not careful, all your 1963-1973 S/SS cars will be stuck racing at nothing but Goodguys events for no money, no recognition, and no fans, at 6 events a year. Or you can take them all bracket racing. That's all you're doing anyway except when you're sandbagging (cheating) to maintain an index. How many of you are new to this in the last 10 years? That's right. No new blood = death of class racing. And this clique sure isn't very open to any neew blood. Let's see how many guys who've know each other and been racing since the 60's jump all over me for this post. Any side bets? Change your attitude toward new cars and new racers or live with the results. You'll be to blame.