AHFS Question

novassdude · 07-30-2009, 10:07 AM

From Travis's reference:

3. For 2004, two runs by the same combination or the same class that are 1.15-second or quicker under the index during the evaluation period will trigger the AHFS process. With the change, two runs from the same driver or two different drivers would have to be posted to trigger the system and cause changes. This will help filter out "one-time fast runs" in categories where there are one or few numbers of a specific combination.
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The way I read this it says any two runs. So I would think two runs by the same car on the same day should trigger the system.
This does make it bad for a person with a one off combo. But if they are clear on the system they can control their own situation. Had he been clear on how the system works after he ran more than 1.15 under he could have backed it down to save his Horse power rating.

Chuck Beach · 07-30-2009, 11:08 AM

I am not disagreeing with what it says, but making 2 or more runs under at a good track at the same race makes no sense. You are at a race at Maple Grove and there is class and the weather is great. There are 8 really good cars in your class. You win class and you made 3 runs under 1.15 in your one off combo. All the other guys ran just as fast or faster than you did but you out drove them. You get HP and since there combo is more common, they don't.

Jim Wahl · 07-30-2009, 12:04 PM

3. For 2004, two runs by the same combination or the same class that are 1.15-second or quicker under the index during the evaluation period will trigger the AHFS process. With the change, two runs from the same driver or two different drivers would have to be posted to trigger the system and cause changes. This will help filter out "one-time fast runs" in categories where there are one or few numbers of a specific combination

This just means that the system is activated and a review will happen. It does not mean that a HP change WILL happen. It just means there will be a review of the combo. They then take all the other runs for that combo in consideration and the class average and then decide the proper course. If you run 1.40 under you WILL get 3.25% the next Monday. Jim

bill dedman · 07-30-2009, 12:33 PM

I have just one question, and it's not tied into the maze of the labyrinthine vagaries of the AHFS, except in a very basic, simple way.

It is this:

If a car, let's say Fred Henson's 'Cuda, for example, makes a run that is more than 1.40 under his index, and for whatever reason, that car isn't weighed (I don't think Fred's car was weighed after that fateful run) and his engine isn't torn down (somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fred tore it down for them), and that run is used to put in place a new factored horsepower number, isn't that assuming a LOT, that the car WAS of legal weight, AND that it had a bona-fide, 100-percent STOCK engine configuration, with LEGAL FUEL at the time that run was made????

How can NHRA install new horsepower factors on a car that they have NO IDEA of the legality of?

I'm sure Fred wouldn't run a light car, and just as sure that his engine wasn't 500 cubic inches, but HOW CAN NHRA KNOW THAT if they didn't weigh the car and tear the engine down, much less, check the fuel?

They can't.... but, that didn't keep them from destroying that combination as a viable race car with this system that automatically bestows egregious amounts of horsepower on cars that MAY, or MAY NOT be legal, if they don't check them thoroughly...

With VERY expensive race cars' viability at stake, how could they do that without ascertaining the legality of the car in question?

HOW?

Is this just another of their "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID" deals???

Greg Hill · 07-30-2009, 01:27 PM

In the past one person could only get one trigger of 1.15 under per event. If two people with the same combination were to go 1.15 under at the same event that would inititate a review. Even if a car went 1.15 under 10 times at one event it would not in itself inititate a review.

Greg Hill · 07-30-2009, 02:03 PM

I just found out that there has been no written policy change on the AHFS in the last year. What I said before should be the way the system is administered. Can one person arbitrarily change the way this is run, with no prior change in the written policy? Is this just another way NHRA ignores it's own rules and procedures? Is one person now the decider on who gets hp and who doesn't? After the triggers are met are averages being taken into consideration? Again there is no transparency about any of this.

As flawed as the system was it was at least administered for the most part fairly to all.

bsa633 · 07-30-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Can one person arbitrarily change the way this is run, with no prior change in the written policy?

Maybe they just discovered that they didn't took full advantage of the words written on the subject and now wanted to screw us around again..

Chuck Norton · 07-30-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

This just means that the system is activated and a review will happen. It does not mean that a HP change WILL happen. It just means there will be a review of the combo. They then take all the other runs for that combo in consideration and the class average and then decide the proper course.

Jim, your interpretation is exactly the way the system has functioned for almost 10 years. Like it or hate it, the AHFS has survived long enough for most of us to have a feel for how it works. I can think of more than half-a-dozen very well-known NHRA officials who have been involved with administering the system and, it has served a purpose. The question seems to be, what constitutes a "trigger." The language of the original rule is vague and allows for a range of interpretations. The overwhelming preponderance of racers who have contacted me today have been working under the impression that one racer can only accumulate one trigger at a given event. I don't know how it was intended to operate but I believe that is the way it has worked since the words were written.

The issues that are puzzling to me are: 1. Who decided that the official interpretation should be changed? One person? Two persons? A committee of persons? 2. Why was it deemed important to change it? Does the system work too well? Not well enough? Not at all? 3. When was the decision made? In February? In April? In mid-July? 4. Who knew that the interpretation had been changed? The tech department? The RAC? Glen Gray? Anyone? 5. Did anyone stop to think that racers should be informed at any point along the way? If not, why not?

Jack Matyas · 07-30-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Norton

Jim, your interpretation is exactly the way the system has functioned for almost 10 years. Like it or hate it, the AHFS has survived long enough for most of us to have a feel for how it works. I can think of more than half-a-dozen very well-known NHRA officials who have been involved with administering the system and, it has served a purpose. The question seems to be, what constitutes a "trigger." The language of the original rule is vague and allows for a range of interpretations. The overwhelming preponderance of racers who have contacted me today have been working under the impression that one racer can only accumulate one trigger at a given event. I don't know how it was intended to operate but I believe that is the way it has worked since the words were written.

The issues that are puzzling to me are: 1. Who decided that the official interpretation should be changed? One person? Two persons? A committee of persons? 2. Why was it deemed important to change it? Does the system work too well? Not well enough? Not at all? 3. When was the decision made? In February? In April? In mid-July? 4. Who knew that the interpretation had been changed? The tech department? The RAC? Glen Gray? Anyone? 5. Did anyone stop to think that racers should be informed at any point along the way? If not, why not?

Chuck -- You bring to light five very good questions but the next important question is -- how the hell are we ever going to get straight answers -- and from whom will they come ? With the HP Committee now more or less disbanded who is left ...................

Sean Cour · 07-30-2009, 07:25 PM

So, let's say I make two runs in class at over 1.15 under. But in eliminations I dial her back and run four rounds at .70-.80 under. Does this mean that all my runs count towards my combo, and if yes, it shouldn't receive any horsepower? If all my runs don't count, why not?

07-30-2009, 10:07 AM	#1
novassdude Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: usa Posts: 752 Likes: 204 Liked 136 Times in 49 Posts	Re: AHFS Question From Travis's reference: 3. For 2004, two runs by the same combination or the same class that are 1.15-second or quicker under the index during the evaluation period will trigger the AHFS process. With the change, two runs from the same driver or two different drivers would have to be posted to trigger the system and cause changes. This will help filter out "one-time fast runs" in categories where there are one or few numbers of a specific combination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The way I read this it says any two runs. So I would think two runs by the same car on the same day should trigger the system. This does make it bad for a person with a one off combo. But if they are clear on the system they can control their own situation. Had he been clear on how the system works after he ran more than 1.15 under he could have backed it down to save his Horse power rating.

07-30-2009, 11:08 AM	#2
Chuck Beach Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Delaware, Ohio Posts: 664 Likes: 12 Liked 58 Times in 13 Posts	Re: AHFS Question I am not disagreeing with what it says, but making 2 or more runs under at a good track at the same race makes no sense. You are at a race at Maple Grove and there is class and the weather is great. There are 8 really good cars in your class. You win class and you made 3 runs under 1.15 in your one off combo. All the other guys ran just as fast or faster than you did but you out drove them. You get HP and since there combo is more common, they don't. __________________ Chuck Beach 3340 STK

07-30-2009, 12:04 PM	#3
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,844 Likes: 667 Liked 683 Times in 129 Posts	Re: AHFS Question 3. For 2004, two runs by the same combination or the same class that are 1.15-second or quicker under the index during the evaluation period will trigger the AHFS process. With the change, two runs from the same driver or two different drivers would have to be posted to trigger the system and cause changes. This will help filter out "one-time fast runs" in categories where there are one or few numbers of a specific combination This just means that the system is activated and a review will happen. It does not mean that a HP change WILL happen. It just means there will be a review of the combo. They then take all the other runs for that combo in consideration and the class average and then decide the proper course. If you run 1.40 under you WILL get 3.25% the next Monday. Jim __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 NHRA D2 National Open Stock Champion 1982 NHRA D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association.

07-30-2009, 12:33 PM	#4
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: AHFS Question I have just one question, and it's not tied into the maze of the labyrinthine vagaries of the AHFS, except in a very basic, simple way. It is this: If a car, let's say Fred Henson's 'Cuda, for example, makes a run that is more than 1.40 under his index, and for whatever reason, that car isn't weighed (I don't think Fred's car was weighed after that fateful run) and his engine isn't torn down (somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fred tore it down for them), and that run is used to put in place a new factored horsepower number, isn't that assuming a LOT, that the car WAS of legal weight, AND that it had a bona-fide, 100-percent STOCK engine configuration, with LEGAL FUEL at the time that run was made???? How can NHRA install new horsepower factors on a car that they have NO IDEA of the legality of? I'm sure Fred wouldn't run a light car, and just as sure that his engine wasn't 500 cubic inches, but HOW CAN NHRA KNOW THAT if they didn't weigh the car and tear the engine down, much less, check the fuel? They can't.... but, that didn't keep them from destroying that combination as a viable race car with this system that automatically bestows egregious amounts of horsepower on cars that MAY, or MAY NOT be legal, if they don't check them thoroughly... With VERY expensive race cars' viability at stake, how could they do that without ascertaining the legality of the car in question? HOW? Is this just another of their "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID" deals??? __________________ Bill

07-30-2009, 01:27 PM	#5
Greg Hill VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville , KY Posts: 1,995 Likes: 68 Liked 279 Times in 68 Posts	Re: AHFS Question In the past one person could only get one trigger of 1.15 under per event. If two people with the same combination were to go 1.15 under at the same event that would inititate a review. Even if a car went 1.15 under 10 times at one event it would not in itself inititate a review. __________________ Greg Hill 4171 STK

07-30-2009, 02:03 PM	#6
Greg Hill VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville , KY Posts: 1,995 Likes: 68 Liked 279 Times in 68 Posts	Re: AHFS Question I just found out that there has been no written policy change on the AHFS in the last year. What I said before should be the way the system is administered. Can one person arbitrarily change the way this is run, with no prior change in the written policy? Is this just another way NHRA ignores it's own rules and procedures? Is one person now the decider on who gets hp and who doesn't? After the triggers are met are averages being taken into consideration? Again there is no transparency about any of this. As flawed as the system was it was at least administered for the most part fairly to all. __________________ Greg Hill 4171 STK

07-30-2009, 07:25 PM	#10
Sean Cour Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 458 Likes: 170 Liked 124 Times in 39 Posts	Re: AHFS Question So, let's say I make two runs in class at over 1.15 under. But in eliminations I dial her back and run four rounds at .70-.80 under. Does this mean that all my runs count towards my combo, and if yes, it shouldn't receive any horsepower? If all my runs don't count, why not?