Question about fuel injection from a newbie

Ed Wright · 05-08-2017, 01:41 PM

Injectors are flow rated at 43.5 psi, I believe.
Not sure why they would tell you that. I'm not the only one that found power there.
Listen to who you want to.
Or, test things for yourself.

Darrel Goheen · 05-08-2017, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Injectors are flow rated at 43.5 psi, I believe.
Not sure why they would tell you that. I'm not the only one that found power there.
Listen to who you want to.
Or, test things for yourself.

Yip your right. 43.5 not 44.5. Like I said I believe you and it makes sense. I'll be raising my pressure to 60 this coming weekend. Will you be at Topeka Nationals? Thanks.

cmracing · 05-08-2017, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrel Goheen

Yip your right. 43.5 not 44.5. Like I said I believe you and it makes sense. I'll be raising my pressure to 60 this coming weekend. Will you be at Topeka Nationals? Thanks.

You are wasting your time and money unless you fix your power issues to your fuel pump. Raising the pressure will make things worse!

You should have a 10 gauge wire feeding the fuel pump. All the EFI cars I wire have a relay in the back, close to the battery, 20 amp fuse between the battery and relay. All wiring from battery to relay to fuel pump is 10 gauge. I also use a 4 pole battery disconnect switch. The smaller terminals on the switch are used to remove the power from the relay coil so when you hit the disconnect switch the engine stops immediately even if you have a working alternator (which I highly recommend you do).

I had a friend with a BS/A swap between 42lb/hr injectors and 60lb/hr injectors within 10 minutes for back to back passes. With keeping the A/F the same, the car ran identical. Don't listen to people telling you that large injectors are a problem.

Been doing this since 1986 and I'm not on here trying to solicit business. Several here know me. I don't have time or the inclination to take on any new projects anyway, just trying to steer you straight.

If you can't get and maintain 12.5 volts at the fuel pump park the car! Get a working alternator and that pump will be MUCH happier at 13.5 to 14.0 volts. So will the injectors.

Ed Wright · 05-08-2017, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmracing

You are wasting your time and money unless you fix your power issues to your fuel pump. Raising the pressure will make things worse!

You should have a 10 gauge wire feeding the fuel pump. All the EFI cars I wire have a relay in the back, close to the battery, 20 amp fuse between the battery and relay. All wiring from battery to relay to fuel pump is 10 gauge. I also use a 4 pole battery disconnect switch. The smaller terminals on the switch are used to remove the power from the relay coil so when you hit the disconnect switch the engine stops immediately even if you have a working alternator (which I highly recommend you do).

I had a friend with a BS/A swap between 42lb/hr injectors and 60lb/hr injectors within 10 minutes for back to back passes. With keeping the A/F the same, the car ran identical. Don't listen to people telling you that large injectors are a problem.

Been doing this since 1986 and I'm not on here trying to solicit business. Several here know me. I don't have time or the inclination to take on any new projects anyway, just trying to steer you straight.

If you can't get and maintain 12.5 volts at the fuel pump park the car! Get a working alternator and that pump will be MUCH happier at 13.5 to 14.0 volts. So will the injectors.

Why in the world would anybody think a B/SA car needed 60 lb injectors? That is forced induction stuff.

Darrel Goheen · 05-09-2017, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Why in the world would anybody think a B/SA car needed 60 lb injectors? That is forced induction stuff.

I didn't think I needed 60 lb. 36 lb would be plenty. I only bought the 60 lb because I had a friend with a set that had very little time on them that he sold to me cheap. I think my LS1 has 42's in it.

GUMP · 05-09-2017, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrel Goheen

I didn't think I needed 60 lb. 36 lb would be plenty. I only bought the 60 lb because I had a friend with a set that had very little time on them that he sold to me cheap. I think my LS1 has 42's in it.

I wouldn't run anything bigger than a 30 lb injector on an LT1 Stocker. I actually had better results running Ford 24 lb injectors in my LT1s. I have had no issues ignoring the 80% rule. Also,any gain that you might see from running a smaller injector at a higher than rated pressure will occur down low. Otherwise, at WOT in third gear everything pretty much seems to work the same once the tune is good.

FYI, my 427 COPO was delivered with 42 lb injectors at 90 psi.

Ed is telling it true.

cmracing · 05-09-2017, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Why in the world would anybody think a B/SA car needed 60 lb injectors? That is forced induction stuff.

Why? Guess I will keep that little secret to myself then..........

Do some dyno testing the an ECM capable of certain things and you shall see........

I see there are a lot of know-it-alls here so I call it quits. Just trying to help the OP. I see he can listen to the other clowns.

Bye now.

Ed Wright · 05-10-2017, 08:41 AM

So, you are the expert? And the rest of us are clowns?

Why would you say that about people?

I simply asked why a B/SA car would need injectors that big.

Who are you?

I seriously doubt you have any "secrets" I need to know. LOL

pbp1 · 05-10-2017, 10:33 AM

Not to kick the hornets nest, But
There is potential power to be gained by running over sized injectors.

I assume that CMRacing is referring to the possibility of Phasing the injector "Event" in relation to the intake valve opening and closing.

I have found some power doing this with the FAST XFI system, but I will tell you that there is no guarantee that you will find anything, and there is no set strategy that will work on every application.

If your intake duration is say, 288 degrees, that equals 40% of a complete engine cycle. So if your strategy is to only have the injector open while the intake valve is open, then you must keep your injector duty cycle equal to or less than 40%.

You may not make any more power this way than you do with smaller injectors at 80% duty cycle, but there is definitely the potential to!

As far as going over the recommended 80% duty cycle max, there are two good reasons not to do this.
One, many injectors are not linear above 80%, meaning that because of poor pintle control at high duty cycle, the pintle may never close at 80-85%. This means that at 80%, you may be getting 100% of the injectors flow potential, therefore, the ECU assumes that there is 20% more fuel that it can add that is not really there.
Two, if you have your engine tuned to run above 80% duty cycle, and you go somewhere where the air is really good, you could easily run out of injector.
The 80% rule of thumb is not there to keep from damaging the injectors or the ECU, it is to make sure that you don't get into a situation where the engine needs more fuel than the injectors can supply.
I am not bashing anyone who is running their injectors above 80%, just making those watching aware of the dangers.

Dan Fahey · 05-15-2017, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmracing

You are wasting your time and money unless you fix your power issues to your fuel pump. Raising the pressure will make things worse!

You should have a 10 gauge wire feeding the fuel pump. All the EFI cars I wire have a relay in the back, close to the battery, 20 amp fuse between the battery and relay. All wiring from battery to relay to fuel pump is 10 gauge. I also use a 4 pole battery disconnect switch. The smaller terminals on the switch are used to remove the power from the relay coil so when you hit the disconnect switch the engine stops immediately even if you have a working alternator (which I highly recommend you do).

I had a friend with a BS/A swap between 42lb/hr injectors and 60lb/hr injectors within 10 minutes for back to back passes. With keeping the A/F the same, the car ran identical. Don't listen to people telling you that large injectors are a problem.

Been doing this since 1986 and I'm not on here trying to solicit business. Several here know me. I don't have time or the inclination to take on any new projects anyway, just trying to steer you straight.

If you can't get and maintain 12.5 volts at the fuel pump park the car! Get a working alternator and that pump will be MUCH happier at 13.5 to 14.0 volts. So will the injectors.

This is a smart preventative maintenance mod that is overlooked.

Our B-Body Impala/Caprice community also suffer from Fuel Pump Problems.
Key issue; GM used just enough gauge size for their Harnesses.

Over time you have dodgy fuel pumps, burned wires, corroded connectors and blown fuses.

Last week the Caprice Wagon Fuel Pump fussed at 240,000 miles.
Bought a Racetronic Harness a while back which has a larger gage wire.
Installed it with a new Delco Fuel Sending Unit and Fuel Pump.

All of a sudden the Fuel Gauge works properly again and drivability improved.

D

05-08-2017, 01:41 PM	#1
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: Question about fuel injection from a newbie Injectors are flow rated at 43.5 psi, I believe. Not sure why they would tell you that. I'm not the only one that found power there. Listen to who you want to. Or, test things for yourself. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

05-10-2017, 08:41 AM	#8
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: Question about fuel injection from a newbie So, you are the expert? And the rest of us are clowns? Why would you say that about people? I simply asked why a B/SA car would need injectors that big. Who are you? I seriously doubt you have any "secrets" I need to know. LOL __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

05-10-2017, 10:33 AM	#9
pbp1 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 80 Likes: 12 Liked 27 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Question about fuel injection from a newbie Not to kick the hornets nest, But There is potential power to be gained by running over sized injectors. I assume that CMRacing is referring to the possibility of Phasing the injector "Event" in relation to the intake valve opening and closing. I have found some power doing this with the FAST XFI system, but I will tell you that there is no guarantee that you will find anything, and there is no set strategy that will work on every application. If your intake duration is say, 288 degrees, that equals 40% of a complete engine cycle. So if your strategy is to only have the injector open while the intake valve is open, then you must keep your injector duty cycle equal to or less than 40%. You may not make any more power this way than you do with smaller injectors at 80% duty cycle, but there is definitely the potential to! As far as going over the recommended 80% duty cycle max, there are two good reasons not to do this. One, many injectors are not linear above 80%, meaning that because of poor pintle control at high duty cycle, the pintle may never close at 80-85%. This means that at 80%, you may be getting 100% of the injectors flow potential, therefore, the ECU assumes that there is 20% more fuel that it can add that is not really there. Two, if you have your engine tuned to run above 80% duty cycle, and you go somewhere where the air is really good, you could easily run out of injector. The 80% rule of thumb is not there to keep from damaging the injectors or the ECU, it is to make sure that you don't get into a situation where the engine needs more fuel than the injectors can supply. I am not bashing anyone who is running their injectors above 80%, just making those watching aware of the dangers. __________________ David Page Fuel Air Spark Technology (FAST)