Mopar 440 racers - time to legalize that shortblock!

[RocketBlock]

Originally Posted by Chris Hill

Rocket,

I went back and checked the 2000 NHRA rulebook, and a 400 block with 440 crank is legal is SS only, grey area though.

It's legal if the correct length approved rods are used. The rule book does not state compression height must be certian diminsion, same thing with the distance from deck to C/L of the crankshaft. Mains and rods diameters are not checked any more, so your point there is not valid. Same thing for pushrods, intake manifolds, and piston compression height, as you don't care with a SS.

And Jim has a good point, protest next time you see it, but I think you'll be donating to the Steve Wann racing fund instead.

But a 400 block for a 440 engine in stock is illegal as hell.

I don't know about you, but when I race I look at a current rulebook, not a 7 year old rulebook. Racing in 2007 and probably in 2008 you will find under page 55 under stock engine and page 67 under SS engine both say the same thing "crossbreeding of parts prohibited"
The B engine mopar and the RB engine mopar are from two families, they share no major components other than cylinder heads. Therefore, it is not neccessary for NHRA to explicitly state the deck height must be OEM. If they did, they would need to provide a tolerance.

Also, this RB 383 sited is not listed in the NHRA official blueprint publications so is not an issue to discuss as it is not relevant to the conversation. But thanks for the information.

To the prior argument by Bill Dedman that "crossbreeding" denotes taking Ford parts and putting them into a Chevy, that doesn't make sense. At the start of the Stock sectionand SS section as well, there is a section titled Blueprinting which states "stock factory OEM components (unless otherwise specified) must be retained and unaltered (i.e., connecting rods, pushrods, crankshaft, etc.).

Good gawd men, I should have made that recital at the beggining of all this mess!

With that in mind, why would I have to go around protesting anybody? The rule is so damn explicit it is not even open for interpretation.

NHRA, take it from here!

[SStockDart]

This entire conversation affects our car. However, it seems that everyone is making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Their is no difference in using the low deck block than using a decked tall block except the main bearings and distributor. Unless NHRA starts measuring crank CL to the deck (for everyone!!!) Expect to see decked 440 blocks. So, the end result is it will cost us more money to change our engines and add about 20 pounds to the front of the car. I don't understand NHRA's logic, except that it will cost us more money to get the same result in a combination that hasn't run within a tenth of a second of the SS/FA record, set by a Chevy.

[Don Whitmore]

Rocket...your posts about this subject in my view, have been excellent. You have provided more than enough engine and rule info for anyone to cross-check, should they choose to do so and, regardless of what your real name is.

Regarding stock, it seems like this 'cross-breeding' should be a no-brainer. For super stock, the arguments against this seem equally logically and reasonable. Although racers are always looking for the last bit of performance from their combo, this 'cross-breeding seems to go way beyond the spirit of super stock racing.

Maybe for some, the rules explicity don't state this can't be done, buy anyone familiar with regulatory bodies will tell you it's the 'intent' behind the regs that takes precedent over what's written. Agencies often publish this 'intent' in guidance documents. Maybe NHRA should provide this to the tech guys.

Sure, super-stock racing has evolved, but do people really want this to go on? Who can make an argument for it? I can point to the 'head rule' as something that got out of hand and now everyone is spending $$$$$$$$$$$$$ because of it.

D. Whitmore
3161 Kyle Bros. GT/DA

[chlngr73]

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

It is possible to use a stock 383 crank in a 400 block and have 451 cubic inches.

Hi Larry was this the same combo you used at Indy to ALMOST beat me in class rnd 2? Just kidding a heck of a race .005 at the stripe!! You and Patsy have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! C ya in 08' !

David Buckner STK 4772

[Lynn A McCarty]

Originally Posted by SStockDart

This entire conversation affects our car. However, it seems that everyone is making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Their is no difference in using the low deck block than using a decked tall block except the main bearings and distributor. Unless NHRA starts measuring crank CL to the deck (for everyone!!!) Expect to see decked 440 blocks. So, the end result is it will cost us more money to change our engines and add about 20 pounds to the front of the car. I don't understand NHRA's logic, except that it will cost us more money to get the same result in a combination that hasn't run within a tenth of a second of the SS/FA record, set by a Chevy.

With all due respect, this simply isnt true. One of the "natural" advantages of a 455 Pontiac is that it has a 6 5/8 rod 10.200 deck. This allows a 455 Pontiac to have a piston with a 1.500 compression height. With a single ring motor we have short piston skirts allowing a piston to be 380 grams without the pin. I now have a pin that goes about 53 gms. This makes a complete piston with two rings pretty freaking light. (one of our only true advantages) Our stroke is 4.223.

What if you have on the contrary a 3.75 stroke motor like a 440 or a Hemi with a 10.750 deck? This is a terrible disadvantage. It makes your piston like an air compressor. I measured Rick Allison's SS/AA piston about 20 years ago and it weighed over 1000 gms. Of course he didnt have a killer light set, but if you add 1/2 the additional stroke (4.223 - 3.75 = 0.473 then 1/2 = 0.2365 inches), then you add the difference between the Pontiac's 10.200 and the Mopars 10.750......that is another 0.550.

So you get a piston that is at least 0.550 plus 0.2365 or 0.7865 shorter. Not only does this take weight out of the piston it takes weight out of the crank to balance. We always used 0.300 compression height as worth a tenth. Maybe with piston technology it isnt that much, but it isnt zero. If you want to read some good info go to Wiseco's website about piston technology and power. It is a good read.

http://www.wiseco.com/TechTips.aspx click on "forged piston technology 101"

We have been talking to Wiseco about their strutted piston. We can get a compression height of 1 inch with this new strutted piston design with a single ring motor no problem. Pontiac has a block 9.200 deck. With our shorter stroke 9.200's we can get a 3.75 stroked 400 motor pretty killer. Like I said, if NHRA wants to go there we are going to have some weird looking motors out there. Like I said, I have no problem with the BBMopar guys getting it, but we should get it too. 400 Chevy guys would have a killer short block.

Rocket block's posts I agree have been excellent! Rocket, you dont know the 1/2 of it, the truth would shock you to the core!

Lynn

[RocketBlock]

Originally Posted by Lynn A McCarty

With all due respect, this simply isnt true. One of the "natural" advantages of a 455 Pontiac is that it has a 6 5/8 rod 10.200 deck. This allows a 455 Pontiac to have a piston with a 1.500 compression height. With a single ring motor we have short piston skirts allowing a piston to be 380 grams without the pin. I now have a pin that goes about 53 gms. This makes a complete piston with two rings pretty freaking light. (one of our only true advantages) Our stroke is 4.223.

What if you have on the contrary a 3.75 stroke motor like a 440 or a Hemi with a 10.750 deck? This is a terrible disadvantage. It makes your piston like an air compressor. I measured Rick Allison's SS/AA piston about 20 years ago and it weighed over 1000 gms. Of course he didnt have a killer light set, but if you add 1/2 the additional stroke (4.223 - 3.75 = 0.473 then 1/2 = 0.2365 inches), then you add the difference between the Pontiac's 10.200 and the Mopars 10.750......that is another 0.550.

So you get a piston that is at least 0.550 plus 0.2365 or 0.7865 shorter. Not only does this take weight out of the piston it takes weight out of the crank to balance. We always used 0.300 compression height as worth a tenth. Maybe with piston technology it isnt that much, but it isnt zero. If you want to read some good info go to Wiseco's website about piston technology and power. It is a good read.

http://www.wiseco.com/TechTips.aspx click on "forged piston technology 101"

We have been talking to Wiseco about their strutted piston. We can get a compression height of 1 inch with this new strutted piston design with a single ring motor no problem. Pontiac has a block 9.200 deck. With our shorter stroke 9.200's we can get a 3.75 stroked 400 motor pretty killer. Like I said, if NHRA wants to go there we are going to have some weird looking motors out there. Like I said, I have no problem with the BBMopar guys getting it, but we should get it too. 400 Chevy guys would have a killer short block.

Rocket block's posts I agree have been excellent! Rocket, you dont know the 1/2 of it, the truth would shock you to the core!

Lynn

It's just that the first half is reason enough. Speaking of ring count on a SS engine, an inherent advantage to a short deck, long rod engine (which is what this 440/400 is all about) is the wrist pin is moved up an extreme amount. That allows a very short piston design as I mentioned earlier. Maybe everybody doesn't know what is good about a short piston with a high pin besides weight. This design allows the piston more stability as the piston is at top dead center and maybe more importantly rock over towards bottom. An engine built to the rules may require two compression rings, an engine built against the rules may only need one compression ring which offers even less weight and less frictional loss. True, many in SS only use one ring but there may be compromises. Those compromises may be negated with a long rod motor. A short deck / long rod engine also has a piston that shows more dwell time at TDC, enhancing the burn rate for more complete combustion. And I agree with you, the crank can get a lot lighter because of the piston weight reduction.
Could you just mill a RB family block to obtain the same advantages? Probably. But I don't think there is enough material there and you would probably have a problem with head gaskets and warping the decks.

[Lynn A McCarty]

Originally Posted by RocketBlock

Could you just mill a RB family block to obtain the same advantages? Probably. But I don't think there is enough material there and you would probably have a problem with head gaskets and warping the decks.

No it screws up the water hole in the front. So, I was told certain "Hemi" teams were allowed to go into the foundry and massage the foundry cores. This allowed the after market blocks to be altered to less than 1 inch if they wanted with plenty of meat on the top. When that kind of bull**** is allowed, we are all done for.......well now that you mention it.....who else is doing it? We shouldnt just pick on the Mopar guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The short deck block issue is a serious one, and no one is paying attention. My opinion is that it takes away from the original engine design. If they are going to allow this, then why dont I alter Pontiac heads to fit a 400 Small Block?

Lynn

[bsa633]

Originally Posted by RocketBlock

I
The B engine mopar and the RB engine mopar are from two families, they share no major components other than cylinder heads.

exept heads so are camshaft,timingchain,rockersystem,oilpump,oilpan,v alvecovers timingcover,etc the same...so different engine familys would be the "grey area" dont you think? hell crossbreeding parts...what about those chevy rods in fords..even stockers..thats crossbreeding to me!also..wonder if they would find any of those 8.200 chevy smallblocks out there if they really start to check this thing?

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by bsa633

...hell crossbreeding parts...what about those chevy rods in fords..even stockers..thats crossbreeding to me!also..wonder if they would find any of those 8.200 chevy smallblocks out there if they really start to check this thing?

Are we talking about the "Aurora/Pro Stock Truck" Blocks????

[Wayne Kerr]

440 (RB) Deck Height 10.720"
400 (B) Deck Height 9.970"
Difference .750"
There is no way that you can deck THREE QUARTERS of an inch off of a production Chrysler block. (page 66 "same year and make for car used") The head bolt holes are barely this deep.
If this were true, Charlie Maluke (sp.) went through a heck of a lot of trouble to build his short deck Hemi blocks for nothing.
Quit lying to yourselves trying to justify what just isn't true.

See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr