Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Qwikpony

We need to remember that NHRA's horsepower comittee needs to be given some respect in the sense that basically...... they were told a HUGE LIE by both Ford and Chrysler about these new cars. It is well known the amount of money that foth Ford and Mopar are putting into NHRA events and etc. So when NHRA asked these manufacturers to give them an HONEST set of power figures ( IN GOOD FAITH), they expected to be told the truth. I can't blame either Ford or Mopar for trying to "one up" the other, but it has come at the expense of too many racers. Ford and Mopar should be ashamed to even think that for a second NHRA and it's sportsman racers are so naive and ignorant as to not know the power potential right away. We are talking about 40+ years of R&D, technology and yes... EFI. The main difference between the "old" LT and LS cars is that they were actually built to be street cars with VIN's and license plates. Now it is up to NHRA to take the necessary action to level the playing field for everyone else while still allowing Ford and Mopar to slug it out in the HP wars. I don't advocate taking HP off of the older combos because many racers have spent countless hours finding the optimum place for the ballast. This could severely hurt the higher horsepower cars on the marginal tracks we routinely race on. I think that a separate class is the best answer at this point. The re-establishment of the EFI classes would be a great step. I was a dealership mechanic for over 10 years, so I know how awesome the EFI tuning parameters are.

2 issues with this line of thought; 1) any idiot could have done a 10 minute internet search ( or read a brochure) and known that the FR500CJ engine was basically a GT500 motor, and would make much more than 425 hp, the same could be said for the Hemi's after looking at the specs. It just goes to show that no due dilligence was done by NHRA, and that's unacceptable. 2) one of the big differences (which NHRA never took into acount) in the HP factors of the previous EFI cars was the switch from gross to net SAE HP ratings just after the muscle car era in the early 70's. Since the late 80's-early 90's was the begining of the factories' starting to really build muscle cars again, it wasn't until then that this decades old change reared its ugly head. So many combos of the mid-late 70's and early 80's were smog choked dogs that when the factories started to control emissions through EFI and put compression and performance back into them it looked as if they were intentionally under rated.

[Qwikpony]

Chad,
You are right in the sense that it is glaringly obvious in the sales literature; however, if Ford gave NHRA a different boost figure then that may account for the "WTF were they thinking" factor ( We know that 500 Hp sells street cars to the public and 425 Hp get a great weight break). There weren't a whole lot of smog devices back in the late 60's to speak of and the 80's had no performance cars that used a computer controlled carburetor with a M/C solenoid. The GM cars had numerous driveability issues, none of which were too much power. With the advent of electric A.I.R. pumps and EFI the parasitic load on the engines is not there in regards to smog control. An "stocker" engine that makes 200 HP over advertised is a killer piece, but at a rating od 425, the CJ makes almost 300.

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Qwikpony

Chad,
You are right in the sense that it is glaringly obvious in the sales literature; however, if Ford gave NHRA a different boost figure then that may account for the "WTF were they thinking" factor ( We know that 500 Hp sells street cars to the public and 425 Hp get a great weight break). There weren't a whole lot of smog devices back in the late 60's to speak of and the 80's had no performance cars that used a computer controlled carburetor with a M/C solenoid. The GM cars had numerous driveability issues, none of which were too much power. With the advent of electric A.I.R. pumps and EFI the parasitic load on the engines is not there in regards to smog control. An "stocker" engine that makes 200 HP over advertised is a killer piece, but at a rating od 425, the CJ makes almost 300.

and that's at the wheels

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Qwikpony

...So when NHRA asked these manufacturers to give them an HONEST set of power figures ( IN GOOD FAITH), they expected to be told the truth.

Do you really think that the OEM's submitted "HONEST" HP numbers in the "Good Old Days"?

[dwydendorf]

Have you guys that are complaining about Ford and Chrysler deflating the horsepower factors been living in a cave the last 45 years? Please spare us the self righteousness. Do you think that in 1966, it was just a fluke that a 426 hemi, 427 chevy and a 427 FE Ford were all rated at exactly 425 horsepower? How about the 1969 255 Hp 350 and the 1968- 70 428 Cobra Jet that are famous for being underfactored? How about the 67-69 290 HP 302 z-28 and the 69-70 boss 302 that was also rated at 290 HP. This stuff has been going on ever since I got involved with Stock and Super Stock 40 tears ago! How about just complaining about that fact that the horsepower factors aren't right and get off your high horse about Ford and Chrysler sending in conservative numbers. I will bet that if you pulled up a Dyno Sheet from all of the engines , you might be able to find a place where they actually produced the horsepower claimed but it wasn't the actual peak horsepower. Get over it!

[James L Miller]

The story I've read on the 1964 Race Hemi was that the dyno at Chrysler was rated for 400HP and they ran it to 425HP and cut it off there before it hit the power peak.

[CBS]

that dyno is on display at the Chrysler museum.....I bet it was really accurate....it looks like something from the wizard of Oz....lol

[Bob Pagano]

Forget about the HP in the 60s the cars ran eachother in SS or FX not Stock Elim.

[dwydendorf]

Originally Posted by Bob Pagano

Forget about the HP in the 60s the cars ran eachother in SS or FX not Stock Elim.

Didn't Ben Wenzel win stock at the 67 Nationals with a 290 hp z-28 and Bobby Warren win the World Championship with a 255 hp 350 in a 69 Nova about 1970? I remember several 427 Galaxies and 427 Impalas running in stock back in the days. Even an occasional 427 Powered Station Wagon were all running in STOCK!

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Bob Pagano

Forget about the HP in the 60s the cars ran each other in SS or FX not Stock Elim.

Just pointing out that the OEM's are doing the same thing that they have always done. You can't blame the racers for running them. It is the NHRA that needs to decide what to do with them.

There lies the $14,000,000.00 question!

(And that is before one wrench is turned!)