We need a new "instant" trigger!

[Billy Nees]

Alan, why is it that for 50 years the only "incentive" that a Stock and then Superstock racer needed was the want to go faster or have the fastest (fill in the blank) in the country and now there's not? Well I've been told that the people have changed and now the sport has to change to accommodate them. I'm not going to go into how they've changed as I think everybody on this board already knows my opinions but I think that you'll agree that they aren't going to change back so stop with the incentive crap. A "bracket racer" is only going to go as fast as he needs to. A "buy it all" racer is going to go as fast as he can afford to go and that leaves a hand full of us that are left to go fast with our minds or what is left of them. The only question I threw out is the instant trigger question. We've got a whole slew of new way underrated combos coming and I don't think that it is reasonable to wait 10 or 15 years for them to get sorted out! Don't you agree? Now instead of spouting your crap why can't you just give me your opinion on how to fix the instant trigger? It's the only thing that I asked about and I know that you are smart enough to add some useful input.

[X-TECH MAN]

Maybe if the instant trigger (after tear down) was 1.00 under the index with a 10% increase (hammer them)instead of the current percentage that takes 10 years to put the combo where it belongs most of the under rated and "TRICK" (bogus and expensive) engines would go away or move into S/S where they belong. .Not to worry.....it will never happen with NHRA.
P.S. After thinking about this for a little while maybe the trigger figure should be lowered to about .75 or .80 under the index as long as they stay at thier current level. If they are lowered then reduce the amount under as a trigger. Whats the point in having the entire field of some races being over one under and the bump spot someplace around .98 under. Thats just nuts. If the AA or A combos get factored out of Stock where they carry enough legal weight then they belong in S/S anyway. The cost of thes "GO FAST" engines is to the point of insanity. And when I say after a "tear down" I mean a very intense inspection. Crank, piston & rod weights, HEADS (NO hidden port work), all of it with NO interfearence from the ivory tower when some of the very good tech people find a problem. Do this at ALL of the races. National events, points races, Opens, and NO seperate adjustment for altitude tracks. My 2 cents but NHRA wont do it anyway.

[Dick Butler]

Billy, I think Alan has good points.
When there were 10 good motors in the 50s to race , racers were clumped together and the natural reward was the fastest(------) in the country.Sponsors loved it fans loved it and NHRA loved and USED it.
With 50 years worth of new combinations being created the sport has changed.
Business plan has changed due to the years and the numbers of combinations. The NHRA adopted a plan of accepting EVERY motor, Every chassis and even allowed GT which multiplied the places to fit your dream combination. RESULT:1) Every person who would build to the rule book any car out there can come and PAY entry somewhere.
Result 2) Statistically fewer cars per class and especially across the nation. Naturally harder to be the fastest (_____) in the country or OHIO or anywhere if only yours exists.
Result 3) NHRA cannot fit the large numbers of cars in a location for Class racing of 150 cars and find 100 class winners without a race of cars in a class. Hard on Sponsors, no spectator appeal and time consuming without value to anyone but the participant who gets to bring his comboand make a bye run for a trophy.
Result4) Being the most under the index becomes some peoples goals even if not racing anyone becomes a goal-- More bogus combos appear to stroke the egos of people who desire that result and NHRA provides the opening by not caring about the factor.Their goals are met, Someone pays to ENTER somewhere even if "racing " has been limited to bracket style eliminator.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Billy, I think Alan has good points.
When there were 10 good motors in the 50s to race , racers were clumped together and the natural reward was the fastest(------) in the country.Sponsors loved it fans loved it and NHRA loved and USED it.
With 50 years worth of new combinations being created the sport has changed.
Business plan has changed due to the years and the numbers of combinations. The NHRA adopted a plan of accepting EVERY motor, Every chassis and even allowed GT which multiplied the places to fit your dream combination. RESULT:1) Every person who would build to the rule book any car out there can come and PAY entry somewhere.
Result 2) Statistically fewer cars per class and especially across the nation. Naturally harder to be the fastest (_____) in the country or OHIO or anywhere if only yours exists.
Result 3) NHRA cannot fit the large numbers of cars in a location for Class racing of 150 cars and find 100 class winners without a race of cars in a class. Hard on Sponsors, no spectator appeal and time consuming without value to anyone but the participant who gets to bring his comboand make a bye run for a trophy.
Result4) Being the most under the index becomes some peoples goals even if not racing anyone becomes a goal-- More bogus combos appear to stroke the egos of people who desire that result and NHRA provides the opening by not caring about the factor.Their goals are met, Someone pays to ENTER somewhere even if "racing " has been limited to bracket style eliminator.

In other words....Stock and S/S racing has become "WATERED DOWN".

[Robert Swartz]

This is a very interesting and engaging topic. I find it even more interesting, since most of the ones debating this, have won open,divisional, and national races, likely within both major organizations. On top of that many have or do currently hold national records within said organizations. And many of you have no doubt built numerous cars, both for yourselves and others. I respect your thoughts and opinions.

Now what about the rest of us. My concern, if you kick the indexes by .5 to 1 second. I can live with that, it's going to make those of us starting with new combos, have a more difficult road to getting a car to a "competitive" level. My definition of competitive is getting the car to run the index or a little below. Once that barrier is breached, your real work begins. I am going to approach it from a "bracket racer" mentality. The index gives me that option.

When the index system was born in the 70's. That was it's purpose. To allow us to build cars. How many on here were part of the old system? I well remember how, when we ran off the national records, how much you had to work on a car to get it to run. Having the ability to set a record, wasn't something you took lightly. Back then I was young and didn't have the drive to do it, myself. I worked with a couple of people that did and we worked alot!

The flip side of the old system. Some combinations of cars, just couldn't run, period. Or, you might have a good car in your part of the country, some guy 1000 miles away, gets a couple solid runs in really good air, kills the record. All you have is either A) an expensive, restrictive bracket car or B) a really nice pile of junk that you can't race anymore. The system at present, may be imperfect but I don't see an alternative.

You either punish individual combinations, which could mean seperating cars. One person could run the combo and someone that makes it go faster gets the HP hit. Or, you enact a system that punishes the combination and we're back to the old system. Many cars, probably will get parked.

I realise, no real answers, just my thoughts on the subject. As many on here have stated, Stock and Super Stock are not for everyone.

Robert Swartz

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Billy, I think Alan has good points.
When there were 10 good motors in the 50s to race , racers were clumped together and the natural reward was the fastest(------) in the country.Sponsors loved it fans loved it and NHRA loved and USED it.
With 50 years worth of new combinations being created the sport has changed.
Business plan has changed due to the years and the numbers of combinations. The NHRA adopted a plan of accepting EVERY motor, Every chassis and even allowed GT which multiplied the places to fit your dream combination. RESULT:1) Every person who would build to the rule book any car out there can come and PAY entry somewhere.
Result 2) Statistically fewer cars per class and especially across the nation. Naturally harder to be the fastest (_____) in the country or OHIO or anywhere if only yours exists.
Result 3) NHRA cannot fit the large numbers of cars in a location for Class racing of 150 cars and find 100 class winners without a race of cars in a class. Hard on Sponsors, no spectator appeal and time consuming without value to anyone but the participant who gets to bring his comboand make a bye run for a trophy.
Result4) Being the most under the index becomes some peoples goals even if not racing anyone becomes a goal-- More bogus combos appear to stroke the egos of people who desire that result and NHRA provides the opening by not caring about the factor.Their goals are met, Someone pays to ENTER somewhere even if "racing " has been limited to bracket style eliminator.

When you talk about years ago. You sound like there were no "oddball" combos out there in stock. For one I remember the Hudson Hornets. And I'm sure there were others that wouldn't meet your "pedigree" of a race car. That was before my time. In my time I've seen 4 cylinder Pintos, and 6 cylinder Mavericks FLY. They were not destined to be race cars from the factory. Someone saw the specs and figured it would work.
If you want "cookie cutter" cars go race the .90 classes, or prostock. Leave stock alone.
There will always be soft combo's. But anyone who wants to can go out and build them. But it's a whole lot easier to cry about them than to build them.
Back to Billy's original post. No mater what the number guys will sandbag it. The CIC race at BelleRose was a perfect example of it. If they went back and paid something, had more class win money, and put your picture in dragster it would give people the incentive to go a little bit faster. And then the competitiveness would kick in.

[Jack McCarthy]

1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS !

with that said...

once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing...
the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work

no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers"

here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years

establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS !

with that said...

once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing...
the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work

no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers"

here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years

establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK

This is the best and most sensable post that I have read yet ! Way to go Jack.

[Ed Wright]

[QUOTE] establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK [QUOTE]

Sounds good to me.

[442OLDS]

I don't know if he would be interested,but Nitro Joe probably has a pretty good idea where the horsepower factors "should" be.I thought his end of year stats were excellent.