We need a new "instant" trigger!

Jack McCarthy · 03-28-2009, 09:37 AM

1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS !

with that said...

once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing...
the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work

no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers"

here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years

establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK

X-TECH MAN · 03-28-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS !

with that said...

once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing...
the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work

no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers"

here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years

establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK

This is the best and most sensable post that I have read yet ! Way to go Jack.

Ed Wright · 03-28-2009, 10:01 AM

[QUOTE] establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers)
all runs count
knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes
anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season
anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment
all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings

captain jack

kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK [QUOTE]

Sounds good to me.

442OLDS · 03-28-2009, 10:13 AM

I don't know if he would be interested,but Nitro Joe probably has a pretty good idea where the horsepower factors "should" be.I thought his end of year stats were excellent.

Dick Butler · 03-28-2009, 11:14 AM

ART, Why do you think this topic keeps coming up if MANY people arent concerned about it. There are group of people who want to race someone and a group who need to search the fine print and build a "Critter" that NHRA could care less about because it is a "one of a kind". NHRA will never bother fine tuning the factoring. It will always be a last resort deal.Poorly thought out and done for attendance reasons. Thus the low hp NEW cars which always will exist.
I have no concern which cars are allowed to race. I have always jokingly said if Green Station wagons was the class and there were 50 in the US to race and be proud of their performance then so be it.
I ran several classes where None of us could be #1 Qualifier due to the factoring on our combination but when you run class with that class and beat 19 cars for the trophy it MEANS something to ANYONE who cares about Stk or SS racing.
If you tell me you ran 2.00 under in a one of a kind car and the temptation is to ask " so What?" Does that mean the index is soft? the car is wrong? The factor is off ? If you said you BEAT twenty cars and you are the faster at the same track that is accomplishment. A Weak Factor is a Weak factor regardless of what car it applies to and hurts the whole playing field and racing group the same.

art leong · 03-28-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

ART, Why do you think this topic keeps coming up if MANY people arent concerned about it. There are group of people who want to race someone and a group who need to search the fine print and build a "Critter" that NHRA could care less about because it is a "one of a kind". NHRA will never bother fine tuning the factoring. It will always be a last resort deal.Poorly thought out and done for attendance reasons. Thus the low hp NEW cars which always will exist.
I have no concern which cars are allowed to race. I have always jokingly said if Green Station wagons was the class and there were 50 in the US to race and be proud of their performance then so be it.
I ran several classes where None of us could be #1 Qualifier due to the factoring on our combination but when you run class with that class and beat 19 cars for the trophy it MEANS something to ANYONE who cares about Stk or SS racing.
If you tell me you ran 2.00 under in a one of a kind car and the temptation is to ask " so What?" Does that mean the index is soft? the car is wrong? The factor is off ? If you said you BEAT twenty cars and you are the faster at the same track that is accomplishment. A Weak Factor is a Weak factor regardless of what car it applies to and hurts the whole playing field and racing group the same.

Dick you really don't get it. Stock "ain't what it used to be in the popular classes. If racer A spends $50,000 then racer B spends $60,000. Now racer G decides to spend $75,000 Where do all the others in the alphabet fit in. If you think your knowlege and expertise can take the place of cubic dollars. I think you are sadly mistaken. These "obscure" classes allow someone to compete without cubic dollars.
You are old enough to remember when Ritchie Zul, Frank Iaconio, Paul Blevins, Etc Built their own cars and were competitive. Do you think a backyard project could even qualify in prostock now????
Diversity keeps the cost down in stock and superstock. How many superstock racers can afford to compete in SS/AH? There is a lot of prestige to run that class. But there are only a certain amount of racers that can afford it. Look in the comp ranks. Do you see a lot of 4 and 6 cylinder cars. The answer is yes.
You constantly beat the "to many classes drum". Race what ever you want and stop trying to dictate your policy on everyone else. You have three .90 classes where the playing field is level. That is enough.

Dick Butler · 03-28-2009, 11:44 AM

Art, Good points about Cost. Much of that is the legalizing of so many things which were not even debated in the "Old Days" Cranks were Stock or teched that way. Heads were Stock or ..... I guess cost will never be contained in a class structure without tech . The high cost of AH is a wonderful example. The rules change at political pressure instead of technical pressure. Result new higher cost rebuilds. Problem is it is falling over into the other classes now. It probably self destruct due to constant rule changes and bending.
Could you support a "new " stock level class? Sealed motors? Spec motors etc to cut cost and level the fields. Do you value racing someone without the use of a breakout to make up for differences?

art leong · 03-28-2009, 12:00 PM

Dick. You can never go back. Look at the "fire storm" on here about the runner volumes. I agree with you about the rules being changed to allow more and more stuff. But that ain't going to change.
To keep people from spending more money than the next guy. The only thing that would work would be claimer races. And who would build a car, knowing that someone could come over and buy it? and how would you set prices?

SS Engine Guy · 03-28-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by art leong

If you think your knowlege and expertise can take the place of cubic dollars. I think you are sadly mistaken.

I disagree. I would rather say that cubic dollars and the "I want it NOW" syndrome has caused racers to not want to do the work to acquire the knowlege and expertise to know (for a fact) what makes a combo a good one. Learning and developing the expertise to build, maintain, and race a combo is not an easy task. That learning curve continues thru-out one's racing carrer. Richie Zul, John Lingenfelter, and Lee Shepherd come to mind in the hard work department.

Run em' off the record and let the performance and hard/smart work do the talking.
Ahfs did not work at the conception, is not working now, and will never work.
Factoring is the key and that can't be accomplished with tech being over ruled and a rule book that is a complete grey area.
Anyone could use the run completer on their weather station and do a better job as long as the combo was deamed legal before hp was added.

03-28-2009, 10:01 AM	#3
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 390 Times in 170 Posts	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! [QUOTE] establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers) all runs count knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings captain jack kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK [QUOTE] Sounds good to me. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

03-28-2009, 10:13 AM	#4
442OLDS VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Elgin,IL Posts: 1,339 Likes: 5 Liked 282 Times in 103 Posts	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! I don't know if he would be interested,but Nitro Joe probably has a pretty good idea where the horsepower factors "should" be.I thought his end of year stats were excellent.

03-28-2009, 11:14 AM	#5
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! ART, Why do you think this topic keeps coming up if MANY people arent concerned about it. There are group of people who want to race someone and a group who need to search the fine print and build a "Critter" that NHRA could care less about because it is a "one of a kind". NHRA will never bother fine tuning the factoring. It will always be a last resort deal.Poorly thought out and done for attendance reasons. Thus the low hp NEW cars which always will exist. I have no concern which cars are allowed to race. I have always jokingly said if Green Station wagons was the class and there were 50 in the US to race and be proud of their performance then so be it. I ran several classes where None of us could be #1 Qualifier due to the factoring on our combination but when you run class with that class and beat 19 cars for the trophy it MEANS something to ANYONE who cares about Stk or SS racing. If you tell me you ran 2.00 under in a one of a kind car and the temptation is to ask " so What?" Does that mean the index is soft? the car is wrong? The factor is off ? If you said you BEAT twenty cars and you are the faster at the same track that is accomplishment. A Weak Factor is a Weak factor regardless of what car it applies to and hurts the whole playing field and racing group the same.

03-28-2009, 11:44 AM	#7
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! Art, Good points about Cost. Much of that is the legalizing of so many things which were not even debated in the "Old Days" Cranks were Stock or teched that way. Heads were Stock or ..... I guess cost will never be contained in a class structure without tech . The high cost of AH is a wonderful example. The rules change at political pressure instead of technical pressure. Result new higher cost rebuilds. Problem is it is falling over into the other classes now. It probably self destruct due to constant rule changes and bending. Could you support a "new " stock level class? Sealed motors? Spec motors etc to cut cost and level the fields. Do you value racing someone without the use of a breakout to make up for differences?

03-28-2009, 12:00 PM	#8
art leong VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia Posts: 2,003 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! Dick. You can never go back. Look at the "fire storm" on here about the runner volumes. I agree with you about the rules being changed to allow more and more stuff. But that ain't going to change. To keep people from spending more money than the next guy. The only thing that would work would be claimer races. And who would build a car, knowing that someone could come over and buy it? and how would you set prices? __________________ Art Leong 2095 SS

03-28-2009, 09:37 AM	#1
Jack McCarthy VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: lyndon ky. ... louisville area Posts: 1,322 Likes: 29 Liked 476 Times in 117 Posts	Re: We need a new "instant" trigger! 1st of all... BOB SHAW ROCKS ! with that said... once again for the umpteenth time since its first unleashing... the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work no automatic bull**** will ever work... ppssstt..."hey nhra, we can manipulate the numbers" here is my opinion... of course ive been preaching all this (no one listens to me) for years establish a HP committee of real people (travis, wesley, lang, bruce, maybe provoast or retired racers) all runs count knock -.50 off these stupid easy indexes anyone goes -.75 under review 4 times per season anyone goes -1.00 immediate review by committee for ANY deemed adjustment all new additions to class guide goes through one of 4 committee meetings captain jack kinda like when farmer rerated you in the tech line, after winning last weeks race... just WHACK __________________ Jack McCarthy 3609 STK "the Captain"