roush cars in stock and super stock

[Evan Smith]

The Roush vehicles that are allowed in NHRA are sold directly through Ford dealers, just like the new Shelby GT500, Just like the new ZR-1 Vette, and just like the old cars were in the past. They are certified as new cars, just like the beloved muscle cars of the '60s and '70. They are the muscle cars of today and deserve to run in NHRA Stock and Super Stock. What most of you don't realize is that you just can't turn up the boost and have the blower maintain it's full efficiency. Of course the boost can be upped, and some power will result, but as you increase the boost you also increase heat and you also force the blower to work outside of it's designed range. I've done quite a bit of testing where I've upped the boost a few psi past the factory setting with little-to-no result in power because the extra heat means I had to pull timing and add fuel to starve off detonation.

I consider myself to be a purist and love the old cars as much as anyone, having owned my fair share of Camaros, Firebirds and GTOs. People cry that there is no new blood in this sport, they they cry when new cars are allowed in. What do you want? Do you people want the sport to die? Because if all we allow is old muscle cars that is exactly what will happen. This is NOT 1960-70 Stock and Super Stock Eliminator! It is just Stock and Super Stock and all new cars from Detroit should be allowed to race. Many more new cars are using supercharging because it allows for great power with excellent efficiency during normal driving. Ford, Chrysler and GM want to be involved, but they are hurting badly right now. They don't sell old cars, they sell new cars and that is what they want to promote.

Evan Smith
Stock 1798

[Alan Roehrich]

Evan, I agree, except on two points.

The ZR-1 Corvette, unless something else has changed, is a pure Chevrolet vehicle, manufactured as sold at GM, and not farmed out to another company to modify it, so the Roush cars are not exactly the same as the ZR-1 Corvette. That does not really matter.

On the supercharger, if you'll read or re-read my earlier post, note where I wrote that Roush is using the largest version of the Eaton supercharger on a 4.6L V8, and Eaton says the largest version is big enough to feed large displacement V engines. I can't tell about Eaton for sure, but a 4.6L V8 is not what I call a large displacement V engine. What that means, given that Eaton says it has better than 76% thermal efficiency, is that it probably will perform a lot different and a lot better than the blowers we're used to seeing, if Eaton is telling the truth. That DOES matter.

Again, I'm am NOT opposed to letting them race. But NHRA needs to do a LOT better job factoring them than they have done factoring a lot of cars, historically. And if they miss, they don't need to drag their *** about fixing it. We've got enough severely underfactored cars in the class now.

[Dick Butler]

Alan, Well stated..
Evan Everyone who supports Stk and SS probably feels it is fantastic that the companies are making a return for the sake of racing AND to help our own manufacturers. I feel Alan hit the nail on the head about the factoring or non factoring which occurs today and worse in th past.

[Terry Cain]

You can bet they'll be under factored. How would it look if a car of the 70's spanked a new tech car? Is that going to be good advertisement? How many cars will that sell?
Years ago, at Bristol, Ford had just came out with the 4 cyl. turbo Mustang. Some Ford engineers had one at the track. Skip Hacker had a 1953 Olds 303 motor with a 4 speed automatic which ran W/SA (IHRA). It was a sled. Well, it had rained. After a long delay of drying the track, someone came up with the idea to run this new tech car against Skip's car heads up. Skip must have beat that car by 8 car lengths.
I didn't see the engineers the rest of the weekend.

[Urraco]

Dont worry, the shoepolish will even it out..

[Bruce Noland]

Evan,
I like the new cars coming in.

How fast did you go with the Mustang you tested at Englishtown?

Why shouldn't these new OEM cars run in a FX class rather than Stock and Super Stock? The OEM guys should like FX because it gives them a spotlight class.

[John Warehime]

These are the muscle cars of today. The LS-1 is pushing out the 283, and the 327. The older cars will be replaced, just as the 55 Chevys, and 57 Pontiacs, 406 Fords, and others, disapeared from Stock Eliminator. The newer GT cars dominate Superstock. When was the last time you read about a Ford Flathead, or an Olds 324, setting an NHRA record? A vehicle manufactured in1983 is elligable for Historic tags! An 83 Camaro SS/GT car, is an antique. Time marches on.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Evan, I agree, except on two points.

The ZR-1 Corvette, unless something else has changed, is a pure Chevrolet vehicle, manufactured as sold at GM, and not farmed out to another company to modify it, so the Roush cars are not exactly the same as the ZR-1 Corvette. That does not really matter.

On the supercharger, if you'll read or re-read my earlier post, note where I wrote that Roush is using the largest version of the Eaton supercharger on a 4.6L V8, and Eaton says the largest version is big enough to feed large displacement V engines. I can't tell about Eaton for sure, but a 4.6L V8 is not what I call a large displacement V engine. What that means, given that Eaton says it has better than 76% thermal efficiency, is that it probably will perform a lot different and a lot better than the blowers we're used to seeing, if Eaton is telling the truth. That DOES matter.

Again, I'm am NOT opposed to letting them race. But NHRA needs to do a LOT better job factoring them than they have done factoring a lot of cars, historically. And if they miss, they don't need to drag their *** about fixing it. We've got enough severely underfactored cars in the class now.

Alan, Chevrolet may assemble the car, however, the R&D for the engine and drivetrain, is outsourced to different companies including Roush, Katech and a few others. Also, this is not the first time a car company has a car built outside the assembly line. Let's not forget the Dart/Hemi 'Cudas, 1968 & 1969 Dart/Cuda 440-4, and other cars such as the Yenko and Hurst cars.

Although they may be using a high efficiency S/C, like Evan said, the heat build up is always the limiting factor. I had my learning curve with the Buick Series I and Series II S/C engines and believe me, whenever you increase the boost, a lot of other issues arise.

[Ven302]

Urraco got it right, the shoepolish will even it out, anyhow any manufacturer that wants to get their cars in the show should be encouraged. The best thing that can ever happen for all Stock /Super Stock racers is that we get new Camaros, racing new Mustangs, racing new Challengers, the spotlight coming back to our kind of racing would be welcomed. It should also help the OEM sell more cars, allow those in the aftermarket to sell more parts, ta da! growth would be good! Even if a reporter did a feature on one of the new cars racing, I bet in one of his pictures there would be an early Camaro, Mustang, Dart in the other lane, how bad would that be? The only real problem is how Glendora factors these cars and how quickly they adjust for their oversights, but hey let em play, I bet the same sentiment has bled out over the GT cars initially then front drive conversions, but that hasn't stopped guys like Wiggle, or Stahle to show that their traditional big cars can fly too.

p.s.
Maybe Nitro Joe can report on how many number 1 qualifiers went on to win the event?

[Tim Kish]

There is a major difference between the Eaton roots supercharger and the turbos which have given forced induction in stock eliminator such a bad name. The roots supercharger is a positive displacement pump it can only pump so much air per revolution, that drive ratio is one of the factors which NHRA intends to control and is pretty easy to police. The turbos are a effectively a dual fan system where the amount of air displaced is a function of the impeller speed, impeller speed is easily manipulated with optimizations of the engine (cam profiles, exhaust restriction changes, etc) - there is alot of variability in how a specific turbo can perform given these variables. This allows a car factored based on the heavily conservative factory design to easily outperform that factory rating. The roots supercharged engines with regulation of the superchager displacement and drive ratio are only at best going to be able to flow so much air thus limiting the overall potential power output no different than a naturally aspirated engine. As with any new engine combination it will take time for the true performance potential to reach an appropriate factor but unlike the turbos where you can overspeed the compressor with tuning the is no "magic speed screw" on the roots blowers.