Coming Soon.....

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by BRETV

Rory, You are wrong, there were no 2003 specs for any Ford in the guide and I wanted to run a 2003 Cobra. So I contacted NHRA and ask them what I needed to do, They told me I had to get someone from Ford to summit all paperwork and specs to them. I contacted Jesse Kershaw and he agreed to send the info. I was building the car per Ford's specs while the process was taking place. Took almost 2 years to finally get it all done. The specs hit the guide and the car was finished around the same time. My uncle went thru the same process back in 1997 to get the 1995 Cobra R in the guides. So as far back as 97, the process has been the same.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but what you're choosing to ignore is that you and Jeff chose to follow the conventional path to approval. You chose a vehicle combination that you wanted to race, and approached the manufacturer and NHRA to get that combination installed into the guide.


What you DID NOT do, is built a finished race car BEFORE the manufacturer submitted specs to NHRA....Which leaves the appearance of specific favoritism, since it appears that the specs will be generated around that ONE SPECIFIC race car.


And yes, I know all about the 1968 Cobra Jets....And all the vagaries involved. Ford really twisted the arm of NHRA to get it done...and not for the first time either. But consider that process involved more one specific vehicle. What we are discussing is a completely new and different process towards inclusion in the guide. Darren admits specifically that....."Once everything is approved by the NHRA it will be added to the guide. Then the whole world can see it. Which is exactly how it has always been.".....Really?....Always?
Not that I can blame them for taking advantage of a weak NHRA who's become beholden to Toyota for manufacturer support. If you can afford it, more power to you. But then too, you almost had to have an expectation that when included in the guide it would receive favorable horsepower to make it as competitive as possible.....Otherwise why would you make the investment in preemptively constructing a finished race car....One off transmission adapters included. By the way? What's the Toyota part number for that transmission adapter? Or the manufacturer? Is it an "on the shelf" part?


I believe these are the concerns you sort of glossed over in an attempt to diminish Mr.McNiel's question...though I've never met the man, maybe you could treat another racer with a little more respect, and determine his thoughts first.

[AveryMcLawhorn]

I?ve really enjoyed the thoughtful dialogue in this thread from everyone involved.

Do I personally agree with the Supra in Stock Eliminator? Not exactly. But I genuinely appreciate seeing something fresh and more modern in the class. I understand the mindset and the creative interpretation of the rules that allowed this car to fit within the classification guide. That said, I do want to express a bit of caution ? it feels like we?re inching closer to a single eliminator class with all the rule changes being proposed or implemented. I found myself agreeing with something GUMP said in his interview: older parts are becoming increasingly scarce, and we need to find ways to adapt if we want to keep this form of racing alive.

Credit where it?s due ? GUMP deserves recognition for challenging the status quo and trying something different. There are plenty of more "modern" cars I?ve dreamed of building and seeing in the guide, but I don?t have the resources or connections to make that happen. Hats off to Mr. GUMP for having both, and for taking the leap.

For those who don?t know me, I?m 31 years young. Compared to the crowd I usually race with, I?d say I?m on the younger side ? though I swear I have the mindset of someone in their 60s. I race a 1966 Chevy II and have a deep love for classic cars. I?ll always choose cool factor over pure performance if I have to pick.

That said, as someone from the younger generation, I strongly disagree with the common narrative about what it takes to get younger people into class racing. If you don?t believe me, go to your next test-and-tune or no-time event ? at least here in Eastern NC ? and see how many younger folks are out there.

Racing is alive and well. Young people are still car people. Performance still matters. But most aren?t interested in spending $50K?$100K+ on a car that runs 9?11 seconds. The reality is, we?ve collectively made this sport incredibly expensive to enter. When someone can spend $15K?$20K on a 2000s+ Camaro or Mustang, throw on a $1,500 induction system, and run 8s or 9s in a street-driven car ? that?s a tough value proposition to beat. Heck, in drag and drive event, the NA winner was a modern Camaro running in the 9's. And the more budget friendly cars are slower, then a modern stock car.

And let?s not forget the kids coming out of Junior Dragsters. Many of them end up in dragsters or door cars, bracket racing for more money, with lower entry fees and fewer restrictions. I?m 100% committed to class racing ? I love it to my core ? but the financial barrier is real, the reality is we are slower ETs for more money. Most young people just don?t have the disposable income to spend big money to run 10s when a factory car can do it with minor upgrades.

Just my two cents ? take it for what it?s worth.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

You chose a vehicle combination that you wanted to race, and approached the manufacturer and NHRA to get that combination installed into the guide.

Which is exactly what I did.

What you DID NOT do, is built a finished race car BEFORE the manufacturer submitted specs to NHRA....Which leaves the appearance of specific favoritism, since it appears that the specs will be generated around that ONE SPECIFIC race car.

This has been the case with late model Stockers for quite a few years now. I think that it started with the Corvettes, then the GTOs, followed by all the Challengers, Mustangs, and Camaros. Each of those started with getting a chassis approved.

And yes, I know all about the 1968 Cobra Jets....And all the vagaries involved. Ford really twisted the arm of NHRA to get it done...and not for the first time either. But consider that process involved more one specific vehicle. What we are discussing is a completely new and different process towards inclusion in the guide. Darren admits specifically that....."Once everything is approved by the NHRA it will be added to the guide. Then the whole world can see it. Which is exactly how it has always been.".....Really?....Always?

This paragraph begins with the answer to your question...

Not that I can blame them for taking advantage of a weak NHRA who's become beholden to Toyota for manufacturer support.

You know this as fact? Or, a little speculation on your part?

If you can afford it, more power to you. But then too, you almost had to have an expectation that when included in the guide it would receive favorable horsepower to make it as competitive as possible.....Otherwise why would you make the investment in preemptively constructing a finished race car....

I would expect the same consideration that other OEMs have been given.

One off transmission adapters included. By the way? What's the Toyota part number for that transmission adapter? Or the manufacturer? Is it an "on the shelf" part?

I have gone out of my way to make sure that these parts are available. NHRA is a bubble within a much larger space. The Supra has a growing enthusiast market. Also, you don't need an OEM part number on a legal aftermarket part.

I believe these are the concerns you sort of glossed over in an attempt to diminish Mr.McNiel's question...though I've never met the man, maybe you could treat another racer with a little more respect, and determine his thoughts first.

I don't know him either. I don't see the disrespect in my comment or Brent's. We just added some history.

It's a shame that so many people try to take something like this and turn it into a them versus us thing.....

[BRETV]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but what you're choosing to ignore is that you and Jeff chose to follow the conventional path to approval. You chose a vehicle combination that you wanted to race, and approached the manufacturer and NHRA to get that combination installed into the guide.


What you DID NOT do, is built a finished race car BEFORE the manufacturer submitted specs to NHRA....Which leaves the appearance of specific favoritism, since it appears that the specs will be generated around that ONE SPECIFIC race car.


And yes, I know all about the 1968 Cobra Jets....And all the vagaries involved. Ford really twisted the arm of NHRA to get it done...and not for the first time either. But consider that process involved more one specific vehicle. What we are discussing is a completely new and different process towards inclusion in the guide. Darren admits specifically that....."Once everything is approved by the NHRA it will be added to the guide. Then the whole world can see it. Which is exactly how it has always been.".....Really?....Always?
Not that I can blame them for taking advantage of a weak NHRA who's become beholden to Toyota for manufacturer support. If you can afford it, more power to you. But then too, you almost had to have an expectation that when included in the guide it would receive favorable horsepower to make it as competitive as possible.....Otherwise why would you make the investment in preemptively constructing a finished race car....One off transmission adapters included. By the way? What's the Toyota part number for that transmission adapter? Or the manufacturer? Is it an "on the shelf" part?


I believe these are the concerns you sort of glossed over in an attempt to diminish Mr.McNiel's question...though I've never met the man, maybe you could treat another racer with a little more respect, and determine his thoughts first.

Tom, Unless I miss understood GUMP, I thought he approached the process just like me and my uncle. I doubt he built the car and then got with NHRA and Toyota and pushed it thru.

As far as glossing anything over, I wasn't trying, just telling Rory there has been a process for years.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

[Dyno]

If the factory horsepower rating is at 382 like I saw previously posted, NHRA will put the rating at 325 for a starting point. That is 85% of the factory rating. That is what was done on previous new applications.

[BRETV]

Originally Posted by Dyno

If the factory horsepower rating is at 382 like I saw previously posted, NHRA will put the rating at 325 for a starting point. That is 85% of the factory rating. That is what was done on previous new applications.

I feel cheated, I need some HP off!! My combo is at 90% LOL



Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

[JP1738]

Originally Posted by AveryMcLawhorn

But most aren?t interested in spending $50K?$100K+ on a car that runs 9?11 seconds. ... but the financial barrier is real, the reality is we are slower ETs for more money. Most young people just don?t have the disposable income to spend big money to run 10s when a factory car can do it with minor upgrades.

Just my two cents ? take it for what it?s worth.

Brother preach. I've never worked so hard, or spent so much money to go 12.60 in my entire life. It is fun and certainly its own thing, but ridiculous from an outsider's perspective.

I <3 class racing tho, it's the people that make it great.

[Tom Broome]

Since you chose to respond and digest my comments towards BrettV part by part, allow me to respond in kind...And might I add that your division of my comments is a great way to dilute and diminish the ability to formulate a cogent response....As well as obfuscate my original thought process...You have answered direct questions like a DC contractor...That is talk about everything, yet not answer the question asked.....Hats off to you Sir!
But certainly you can see that answers of this type naturally lead to speculation.
I'm not interested in starting a flame war, but I do see some glaring discrepancies in your statements throughout this thread. So it would be the polite thing of you to actually provide some consistent straight answers

Originally Posted by GUMP

Which is exactly what I did.
This has been the case with late model Stockers for quite a few years now. I think that it started with the Corvettes, then the GTOs, followed by all the Challengers, Mustangs, and Camaros. Each of those started with getting a chassis approved.

You say that is what you did? What I asked was for BrettV, and that was that he did not build a finished race car with one off specific parts like transmission adapters BEFORE approaching the manufacturer for submission of a specific combination. You chose to respond with a word salad about chassis approval.
The Velde's saw a dealer ordered package that they would like to race, and approached NHRA through the manufacture's channels to submit it for approval...Right?
So your statements seem to conflict each other on this one point.Looking through your own comments, you admitted that the car was not in the guide when you constructed it. The car seems to be finished and has still not been put in the guide as you alluded too. How is that exactly the same?...Oh wait...you didn't answer that question...It was all about chassis approval.
I know....Your rebuttal will be..."That's the way the Dragpak, COPO, and (newer) Cobra Jets were done. Those are manufacturers submissions from a performance program....So what input and influence did TRD have on this project?
But based on your own statements here, it's not the way your (this) project was accomplished. In those cases an automobile manufacturer approached NHRA, and submitted a proposal for a completed factory/aftermarket race car package.
So then? Who initially approached who for the inclusion of this race car? Did you approach NHRA? Then work with Toyota to finalize specifics? Or did you approach Toyota, to request they work with NHRA....Minor points to be sure, but it's important to understand how you managed to accomplish such a task easily enough to build a complete race car without any foreknowledge.

This paragraph begins with the answer to your question...

This?....And yes, I know all about the 1968 Cobra Jets....And all the vagaries involved.
So your answer is...BBBut FFFFord did it in 1968...
Maybe your memory is better than mine, but exactly how many Cobra Jets were raced in STOCK Eliminator at the 1968 NHRA Winternationals??? Don't answer with how many raced in any specific other year...Or how the rules currently are. You brought up the Cobra Jet rollout first.

Not that I can blame them for taking advantage of a weak NHRA who's become beholden to Toyota for manufacturer support.

What I do see with my eyes is that Toyota seems to have an impressive amount of influence on Motorsports wherever they choose.
What I do know as a fact, is that Toyota is the largest automobile manufacturer in the world.
What I can speculate on is how that status might affect the decisions of NHRA towards some classes the "the Association" views as glorified bracket racing.

I would expect the same consideration that other OEMs have been given.

That is an interesting way you framed that statement...." the same consideration that other OEMs...."That seems to allude that the vehicle in question is in truth a Toyota project with you as a subcontractor....
Or...Here's one of those disruptions I referenced earlier...Because you bypassed my original question.
A yes or no will suffice, was this car constructed prior to approaching NHRA for it's inclusion in Stock Eliminator? Your previous comments tend to say no.

I have gone out of my way to make sure that these parts are available. NHRA is a bubble within a much larger space. The Supra has a growing enthusiast market. Also, you don't need an OEM part number on a legal aftermarket part.

Yes I know that you don't need to have an OEM part number......But The specific part has to be generally available, that doesn't mean that a one toff CNC transmission adapter is considered legal just because it's already on a race car. If I chose to purchase one tomorrow, where could I buy this transmission adapter?

I don't know him either. I don't see the disrespect in my comment or Brent's. We just added some history.

It's a shame that so many people try to take something like this and turn it into a them versus us thing.....

Again I was responding to Brett, who completely (much like you) bypassed the content and intent of the question that Rory had...Take the time to look up his original question.

And them versus us? I'm unsure if that was a direct referral towards me, but I was always under the assumption that stock eliminator was for automobile combinations that were dealer/showroom available. Them them versus us, actually started when the manufacturers pressured NHRA into accepting COPO, DragPak and CobraJet combinations into Stock Eliminator.....That's when the US...little guy who wants to upgrade his street car, became the THEM...those who can afford to bankroll that one big expense to purchase a "store bought" race car. I'm not going to say where I feel you fit in...

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by BRETV

Tom, Unless I miss understood GUMP, I thought he approached the process just like me and my uncle. I doubt he built the car and then got with NHRA and Toyota and pushed it thru.

As far as glossing anything over, I wasn't trying, just telling Rory there has been a process for years.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

Bret, I'm not disagreeing with you directly...see my comments to him. That approval process seems to be somewhat fluid, sometimes it happens rapidly, some times not.
But based on the existence of a car that seems to be complete before it's in the guide....GUMP admits it is not yet in the guide, and alludes that the specs are not yet finalized. Seems to be contrary to how the process has functioned in the past. Then we can add things like the transmission adapter, that currently only exists for that one car....I know you understand the mental gymnastics behind how FEs ended up with C4s...It only steepens the slippery slope that Stock Eliminator maintains a tenuous grasp on. Based on some of that "logic" it would be perfectly legal to use a Metric GM transmission in something like a Fox body Mustang stocker.

[BRETV]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Bret, I'm not disagreeing with you directly...see my comments to him. That approval process seems to be somewhat fluid, sometimes it happens rapidly, some times not.
But based on the existence of a car that seems to be complete before it's in the guide....GUMP admits it is not yet in the guide, and alludes that the specs are not yet finalized. Seems to be contrary to how the process has functioned in the past. Then we can add things like the transmission adapter, that currently only exists for that one car....I know you understand the mental gymnastics behind how FEs ended up with C4s...It only steepens the slippery slope that Stock Eliminator maintains a tenuous grasp on. Based on some of that "logic" it would be perfectly legal to use a Metric GM transmission in something like a Fox body Mustang stocker.

Tom, I totally understand what you are saying and Stock isn't anywhere near what it was intended, but what in life is? Everything has evolved and the horse left the barn many moons ago. No going back, believe me I WISH THEY WOULD, But..... why stop progress in a sport we all love. I LOVE the passion coming from all these guys that disagree, makes the sport better. Like I said in a past post, these new cars have many manufactures and it all started getting watered down when they stuck 904 guts in every Stocker trans. LOL I gotta go work on this junk FFFFord, spend twice as much $$$ and work twice as hard as the Chevy guys and now maybe Toyota's too LOL.





Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon