index lowering

[Alan Roehrich]

A few observations from a currently former competitor, who may or may not be able to return, due to health, and the resulting financial issues.


First, yes, everyone should have a place to race. However, everyone can't, and shouldn't, run Stock or Super Stock. No class, or even sport, can be everything to everyone. That's a recipe for disaster.


Second, anyone can see that NHRA has no real interest in increasing the car counts in either Stock or Super Stock. Some individuals at/in NHRA probably do, but corporate NHRA doesn't care.


Third, changing the triggers is probably the best possible "common ground" solution.


Fourth, you're never going to make everyone happy, and probably shouldn't even try. Actually, if you've pissed everyone off at least a little, and no one too much, you've probably gotten it about right.


Fifth, you're never going to get a "level playing field". No two humans are the same on a day to day basis, so what they accomplish won't be. And some combinations are never going to go very fast, some stuff just doesn't have any real potential.



Sixth, some people are willing to spend time and money to go fast, some aren't. It gets prohibitively expensive to try to keep money out with rules, and often to keep effort out with rules.


Finally, some people are going to choose slow combinations in lower classes, and they're not going to be willing to spend the money on aftermarket pistons, camshafts, etc, never mind power train (transmission, converter, etc) stuff to go fast. You're NEVER going to make them equal to or happy with the guys running fast stuff and building high end engines and transmissions.


Over my 45 plus years as a motorsports enthusiast, and competitor in several motorsports, I have seen attempts to make those sports and classes "fit everyone" absolutely destroy the sports over the long run. I've seen fast growing sports permanently stunted, and seen entire sports nearly disappear, with tracks closing, spectators leaving, and competitors quitting. It just doesn't work. Stock and Super Stock are probably the most hard core sportsman classes in drag racing, along with Competition Eliminator. The "casual competitor" is never going to really fit in, or be happy. Myself, I'm sidelined specifically because I can't be competitive right now in any way that I care to compete. I'm on the side lines helping people and trying to rebuild.


Y'all can take all that, or leave it, for whatever it's worth, or not worth.

[JGrossijr]

Excellent post Alan

[Mark Madison]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

A few observations from a currently former competitor, who may or may not be able to return, due to health, and the resulting financial issues.


First, yes, everyone should have a place to race. However, everyone can't, and shouldn't, run Stock or Super Stock. No class, or even sport, can be everything to everyone. That's a recipe for disaster.


Second, anyone can see that NHRA has no real interest in increasing the car counts in either Stock or Super Stock. Some individuals at/in NHRA probably do, but corporate NHRA doesn't care.


Third, changing the triggers is probably the best possible "common ground" solution.


Fourth, you're never going to make everyone happy, and probably shouldn't even try. Actually, if you've pissed everyone off at least a little, and no one too much, you've probably gotten it about right.


Fifth, you're never going to get a "level playing field". No two humans are the same on a day to day basis, so what they accomplish won't be. And some combinations are never going to go very fast, some stuff just doesn't have any real potential.



Sixth, some people are willing to spend time and money to go fast, some aren't. It gets prohibitively expensive to try to keep money out with rules, and often to keep effort out with rules.


Finally, some people are going to choose slow combinations in lower classes, and they're not going to be willing to spend the money on aftermarket pistons, camshafts, etc, never mind power train (transmission, converter, etc) stuff to go fast. You're NEVER going to make them equal to or happy with the guys running fast stuff and building high end engines and transmissions.


Over my 45 plus years as a motorsports enthusiast, and competitor in several motorsports, I have seen attempts to make those sports and classes "fit everyone" absolutely destroy the sports over the long run. I've seen fast growing sports permanently stunted, and seen entire sports nearly disappear, with tracks closing, spectators leaving, and competitors quitting. It just doesn't work. Stock and Super Stock are probably the most hard core sportsman classes in drag racing, along with Competition Eliminator. The "casual competitor" is never going to really fit in, or be happy. Myself, I'm sidelined specifically because I can't be competitive right now in any way that I care to compete. I'm on the side lines helping people and trying to rebuild.


Y'all can take all that, or leave it, for whatever it's worth, or not worth.

Alan, You nailed it. As Jim, Said Excellent post.


Mark Madison

[JP1738]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Finally, some people are going to choose slow combinations in lower classes, and they're not going to be willing to spend the money on aftermarket pistons, camshafts, etc, never mind power train (transmission, converter, etc) stuff to go fast. You're NEVER going to make them equal to or happy with the guys running fast stuff and building high end engines and transmissions.

I feel attacked

I deliberately went with a slow car, in a low class, with moderate potential. Don't have to worry about heads up, bullet proof th350, hardy rotating assembly and valve train. I have no issue with people wanting to go fast, knock yourself out. If my combo takes a hit, I like that a whole lot less, but that's what I signed up for.

We (slow ppl) don't want the class to come to us, but we don't want it to run away either.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by JP1738

I feel attacked

I deliberately went with a slow car, in a low class, with moderate potential. Don't have to worry about heads up, bullet proof th350, hardy rotating assembly and valve train. I have no issue with people wanting to go fast, knock yourself out. If my combo takes a hit, I like that a whole lot less, but that's what I signed up for.

We (slow ppl) don't want the class to come to us, but we don't want it to run away either.

Nope, not attacking anyone. just stating the facts. I've never said anyone wasn't welcome, just that no one is immune to the reality. And the reality is that both Stock and Super Stock are based on performance, and that being the case, that's where the focus must remain for the classes to survive, much less thrive.

[JP1738]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Nope, not attacking anyone. just stating the facts. I've never said anyone wasn't welcome, just that no one is immune to the reality. And the reality is that both Stock and Super Stock are based on performance, and that being the case, that's where the focus must remain for the classes to survive, much less thrive.

No, I'm with you 100%, just being facetious.

[Cglrcng]

Hey Alan,

11 weeks plus June 2, 2022 waiting in line for NHRA Accepted Replacement Pistons Forged units from Ross and wrapped w/ custom ringsets made by Total Seal in all 4 holes,...Check. Aftermarket Cam...Check. Holley EFI being installed now (it wasn't that long ago that NHRA added the Terminator X to the accepted parts list), 1 big change at a ttimeI can do on my budget AND still keep making events and race too, plus I plan many more upgrades over time.

I just happen to be the slowest guy in the category currently (especially at elevation), if it wasn't me...It would be someone else.

I want fast guys to go as fast as they can possibly go in the other lane, I just want to be in the lane next to them doing the same.

The AHFS is their enemy, not me. And on the subject of an HP hit (due to the AHFS and engine family rules therein my specific 99hp combo was hit in June 2003 with 6hp (6?25.00lbs=150 extra lbs.) An A/SA taking a 6 hp hit=24 lbs. Extra.

The AHFS was instituted in what year? Is that important? It may just be as there is an engine family rule...Once an engine family has been hit with HP, is is no longer eligible for a reduction.

The combining of the FWD classes have caused an outlier concerning engine family hits as I see it. And that affected my combo huge. It is what it is...but it is not for lack of attempting to go faster.

1 step at a time, with lots of hard work. And it isn't for lack of expending labor or dollars. I have only been back at this 14 months racing it this time around, and 18 months prepping the car before that.

Not all slow guys are sitting still and doing nothing. And not all are also wrenching on a comp entry at the same time racing a stock entry to stay busy at the track because there is so much free time, and they know they assembled theirs themselves and breakage is not much of an issue. Not a complaint...I love doing it. I don't race a second car, so I get the experience and help another (Scott McClay), compete also that needs crew help. Cannot race that comp entry without a crew.

HP hits in the category are nowhere near eqitable across the classes top to bottom period.

[Mike Gray]

Originally Posted by Cglrcng

Hey Alan,


The AHFS is their enemy, not me. And on the subject of an HP hit (due to the AHFS and engine family rules therein my specific 99hp combo was hit in June 2003 with 6hp (6?25.00lbs=150 extra lbs.) An A/SA taking a 6 hp hit=24 lbs. Extra.
.

If your 99hp combo was hit with 6hp (is it 99 now or 105) it doesn’t matter it is about 6.25% which according to AHFS is a run 1.350-1.399 under. A similar run in my A stock car results in +25hp or 200lb. (If I’m doing my math right)

Not saying your +6hp was right or wrong but the comparison is off a bit.

[Alan Roehrich]

Gary,
My position was not that the AHFS is perfect, it isn't. Nothing man made is.


It probably should be "graduated" a bit, top to bottom. I doubt they'll take the time and make the effort.


Nothing wrong with what you're doing, or how. I don't think anything in my post states that.




Mike,
Thanks for doing the math.

[Doug Domm]

?IF? indexes are lowered will the association racer groups such as Midwest Class Racers follow suit? Or will they keep the door open for the folks that still desire racing their S/SS based cars that can?t make the ?new? indexes?