index lowering

Mark Lewis · 11-12-2024, 06:12 PM

Years Ago,(Monty Bogan) I had a 74 Nova. 350/265 hp, While in Jim Marshall,s study hall one day we were looking at the classification guide and the engine blue print specs for an up coming test. I discovered a California camshaft option for my car, All other specs were the same and cam was slightly bigger, duration and lift were checked then.
Jim looked it over and said that looked pretty good to him as it was only 260hp. So I claimed the lower HP and was #1 qualifiers at Atlanta
Got to go thru a thorough inspection and I was only 48 under then to be #1. I thought I was a big dog then. But 2 weeks later I saw where the HP committee made both combos 275 hp.
Suddenly went from LSA to KSA,
Point being they had a HP committee that looked all the time and not once a year, Get ratings in line and let everybody run as fast as they want.
Thats the story of the day For Bogan and Mark Alvey lol

StockerStang912 · 11-12-2024, 07:45 PM

Avery - great work and really awesome to see actual data get brought to the discussion.

There's certainly been a drop-off to 2015 levels after the initial post-IHRA growth.

SS STK
2015 945 1,442
2018 1,130 1,476
2019 1,139 1,472
2022 968 1,304
2023 979 1,320

Sean Cour · 11-12-2024, 10:33 PM

As I read through all these posts, not one has said Stock and Super Stock is a performance category with a lot of advancements made in the last ten to twenty years to raise the performance levels! We that are reasonable quick make adjustments to ?slow down? our hot rods to keep from hitting the combos. I used to love the races where we could ?learn? what our hot rods wanted. Not anymore, as it?s all about protecting the combo, while some ?millionaire? goes out and behaves like a teenager in a whorehouse with a wallet full of cash!
If we can?t seem to keep these combos in line, move weight breaks to one pound breaks and keep the indexes the same! Separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Heads-ups will give hits and adjust accordingly!

Mike Volkman · 11-13-2024, 06:34 AM

I think we should reimagine and in SS, separate the carbs from injected. Lets stop looking to what was to that which can be (he- he). And i forogt, you can lie to nhra and tell them its really a carb. Now that was funny.

Volkman

dragracerray · 11-13-2024, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Cour

As I read through all these posts, not one has said Stock and Super Stock is a performance category with a lot of advancements made in the last ten to twenty years to raise the performance levels! We that are reasonable quick make adjustments to ?slow down? our hot rods to keep from hitting the combos.

Sean in the cars that fast enough to intentionally slow down represents lots of time and money to get there. Lets look at the other end of the spectrum. I have heard stories (back in the 50s and 60s) where you could go to your car dealer, buy a car and be under the index. Maybe that exists today but I am not aware of it.
Here is another way to grow our sport! Add stock eliminator classes just for entry level people where they can buy a car (inexpensive car) and be under the index and then NHRA promotes it in the media. Ray

Billy Nees · 11-13-2024, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragracerray

Add stock eliminator classes just for entry level people where they can buy a car (inexpensive car) and be under the index and then NHRA promotes it in the media. Ray

WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept!
Let's just split Stock in half. SS too for that matter. No more 8 second cars racing 15 second cars (I wonder how they sell that to their insurance carrier). NHRA apparently doesn't have a problem adding different Eliminators to the program. They could run "Jr. Stock" right after the Juniors and Index cars and right before the Snowmobiles!

dragracerray · 11-13-2024, 06:39 PM

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;705437]WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept!
/QUOTE]

Billy I have heard Junior stock mentioned here in the past but I have not been in Stock very long so I know nothing of it. Could you explain how it worked and what was wrong with the concept for us newbies?

Did it have at least one combination where you could buy a cheap car and be under the index?

Ray

Mark Yacavone · 11-13-2024, 08:35 PM

[QUOTE=dragracerray;705471]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept!
/QUOTE]

Billy I have heard Junior stock mentioned here in the past but I have not been in Stock very long so I know nothing of it. Could you explain how it worked and what was wrong with the concept for us newbies?

Did it have at least one combination where you could buy a cheap car and be under the index?

Ray

Junior Stock was an NHRA eliminator, from about 1965 to 1971.
The idea was for home built, backyard cars to be raced on a part time basis.
The top classes of SS , down through A/Stock, were being dominated by Jenkins, Sox, Booth, Vanke, and various dealer and factory sponsored rides.
Jr.Stock was handicapped by the national records though. If there was any soft classes, they usually didn't last very long! It soon became just as sophisticated as their SS big brothers.

National event finals were flat out and a lot of them became the new national record.

Also holding a national record was a big deal, where points were given out for ET and /or MPH.
A lot of the popular class records got beat down at the fast tracks such as Cecil County , Fremont, etc.
If you could run a few tenths off the record at your local track in the summertime, you had a good chance of winning some pocket money.... all the while, running flat out to the finish line.

I'm sure someone will pick it up from here, as to Jr.Stk 's demise

****
This thread was starting quite a few years back, by Mr. William Cole, who's still out there snapping and posting pics here on C/R

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-stock.201085/

SS/1230 · 11-13-2024, 09:08 AM

I think they should leave the indexes alone.. In my opinion it certainly tightens things for racers that are close to running the index. I understand that racers pride themselves in spending as much money as possible to be able to go a second under or more, and that means something to them, but that isn't the case for everyone. At the end of the day, its a bracket race 99% of the time. There may be certain combos that are more prominent and have more cars running the same class where you might race heads up more frequently, but i can tell you that i have had 2 heads up runs in eliminations since 2004 (one was out of division). Not enough times for me to justify spending 10s of thousands of dollars to try and go faster when I'm going to end up having to put a dial-in on the window anyways. I know some reading this can take this as an insult, or out of context, but know that I'm not trying to insult any hard working racer who loves to set records. Lets just say when I go to a race, my ultimate goal isn't to qualify #1 or to win class.. I'm more focused on winning the race, and if i lose heads up during those 6/7 rounds so be it. As infrequent as that is, ill take my chances.

Lets be honest, whether they lower the indexes or not, the same racers that are on top of the qualifying sheet will remain on top of the qualifying sheet.. I think the negative affect on the racers who are closer to running the index is being overlooked.

bwheeler051 · 11-13-2024, 09:32 AM

I have drag raced for years but am new in the stock world.
I sure dont want to see a change in indexes while I am still testing and chasing et/hp for my combo.
I would think if they want to make a change, then use the mechanism you have in place and adjust the threshold up. Use ahfs at an earlier point to hit the combos/competitors that they feel need the hit. Use the analytics to hit the combos that show they are equally as quick to the 1000ft and do not drive it out and show their hand. The data is there. It will show what combos need some massaging and what combos seem ok.

With all that said... watching Indy with the ahfs out of the equation and how far under folks were going, this was coming.

11-12-2024, 07:45 PM	#2
StockerStang912 Junior Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 15 Likes: 1 Liked 20 Times in 6 Posts	Re: index lowering Avery - great work and really awesome to see actual data get brought to the discussion. There's certainly been a drop-off to 2015 levels after the initial post-IHRA growth. SS STK 2015 945 1,442 2018 1,130 1,476 2019 1,139 1,472 2022 968 1,304 2023 979 1,320 __________________ Greg Viscome 193 GT/QA

11-12-2024, 10:33 PM	#3
Sean Cour Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 458 Likes: 170 Liked 124 Times in 39 Posts	Re: index lowering As I read through all these posts, not one has said Stock and Super Stock is a performance category with a lot of advancements made in the last ten to twenty years to raise the performance levels! We that are reasonable quick make adjustments to ?slow down? our hot rods to keep from hitting the combos. I used to love the races where we could ?learn? what our hot rods wanted. Not anymore, as it?s all about protecting the combo, while some ?millionaire? goes out and behaves like a teenager in a whorehouse with a wallet full of cash! If we can?t seem to keep these combos in line, move weight breaks to one pound breaks and keep the indexes the same! Separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Heads-ups will give hits and adjust accordingly! __________________ Sean Cour T6066 ladle

11-13-2024, 06:34 AM	#4
Mike Volkman Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 79 Likes: 32 Liked 497 Times in 50 Posts	Re: index lowering I think we should reimagine and in SS, separate the carbs from injected. Lets stop looking to what was to that which can be (he- he). And i forogt, you can lie to nhra and tell them its really a carb. Now that was funny. Volkman

11-13-2024, 06:39 PM	#7
dragracerray Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Webster, New York Posts: 218 Likes: 472 Liked 208 Times in 89 Posts	Re: index lowering [QUOTE=Billy Nees;705437]WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept! /QUOTE] Billy I have heard Junior stock mentioned here in the past but I have not been in Stock very long so I know nothing of it. Could you explain how it worked and what was wrong with the concept for us newbies? Did it have at least one combination where you could buy a cheap car and be under the index? Ray __________________ Ray Bassett I/SA 1687, SS/DA 1687 "SuperPro is both", unknown

11-13-2024, 09:08 AM	#9
SS/1230 Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 127 Likes: 2 Liked 61 Times in 16 Posts	Re: index lowering I think they should leave the indexes alone.. In my opinion it certainly tightens things for racers that are close to running the index. I understand that racers pride themselves in spending as much money as possible to be able to go a second under or more, and that means something to them, but that isn't the case for everyone. At the end of the day, its a bracket race 99% of the time. There may be certain combos that are more prominent and have more cars running the same class where you might race heads up more frequently, but i can tell you that i have had 2 heads up runs in eliminations since 2004 (one was out of division). Not enough times for me to justify spending 10s of thousands of dollars to try and go faster when I'm going to end up having to put a dial-in on the window anyways. I know some reading this can take this as an insult, or out of context, but know that I'm not trying to insult any hard working racer who loves to set records. Lets just say when I go to a race, my ultimate goal isn't to qualify #1 or to win class.. I'm more focused on winning the race, and if i lose heads up during those 6/7 rounds so be it. As infrequent as that is, ill take my chances. Lets be honest, whether they lower the indexes or not, the same racers that are on top of the qualifying sheet will remain on top of the qualifying sheet.. I think the negative affect on the racers who are closer to running the index is being overlooked. __________________ James Fontana SS/1230

11-12-2024, 06:12 PM	#1
Mark Lewis Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 346 Likes: 63 Liked 207 Times in 44 Posts	Re: index lowering Years Ago,(Monty Bogan) I had a 74 Nova. 350/265 hp, While in Jim Marshall,s study hall one day we were looking at the classification guide and the engine blue print specs for an up coming test. I discovered a California camshaft option for my car, All other specs were the same and cam was slightly bigger, duration and lift were checked then. Jim looked it over and said that looked pretty good to him as it was only 260hp. So I claimed the lower HP and was #1 qualifiers at Atlanta Got to go thru a thorough inspection and I was only 48 under then to be #1. I thought I was a big dog then. But 2 weeks later I saw where the HP committee made both combos 275 hp. Suddenly went from LSA to KSA, Point being they had a HP committee that looked all the time and not once a year, Get ratings in line and let everybody run as fast as they want. Thats the story of the day For Bogan and Mark Alvey lol

11-13-2024, 09:32 AM	#10
bwheeler051 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Watkinsville, GA Posts: 10 Likes: 0 Liked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Re: index lowering I have drag raced for years but am new in the stock world. I sure dont want to see a change in indexes while I am still testing and chasing et/hp for my combo. I would think if they want to make a change, then use the mechanism you have in place and adjust the threshold up. Use ahfs at an earlier point to hit the combos/competitors that they feel need the hit. Use the analytics to hit the combos that show they are equally as quick to the 1000ft and do not drive it out and show their hand. The data is there. It will show what combos need some massaging and what combos seem ok. With all that said... watching Indy with the ahfs out of the equation and how far under folks were going, this was coming.