Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I figure this has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

BUT, that name Wolfe triggered this thought to me.

I have some pics of a '62 Pontiac with the name Wolf & McClelland over the door. Have pics with it running C/SA & D/SA.

Name not even spelled the same. So, the similarity of a Wolf '62 Pontiac to a Wolfe '69 Pontiac is probably accidental.

And Its Ben Wolf per Doug Boyce's book, same as Ben Wolf 61 Pontiac listed as winner of B/SA at 1969 Springnationals.

So either the name is spelled wrong in the article or tts a coincidence that Ben Wolf ran a Pontiac and Wilson "Sonny" Wolfe also ran a Pontiac.
Maybe coincidence.

I'm now betting the B/SA win in Spring 1969 was likely the Ben Wolf of Wolf&McClelland, since McClelland was still running the big 62 Cat in D/SA=9.00 class at the same meet (and won).

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

And Its Ben Wolf per Doug Boyce's book, same as Ben Wolf 61 Pontiac listed as winner of B/SA at 1969 Springnationals.

So either the name is spelled wrong in the article or tts a coincidence that Ben Wolf ran a Pontiac and Wilson "Sonny" Wolfe also ran a Pontiac.
Maybe coincidence.

I'm now betting the B/SA win in Spring 1969 was likely the Ben Wolf of Wolf&McClelland, since McClelland was still running the big 62 Cat in D/SA=9.00 class at the same meet (and won).

How 'bout if I throw another Wolfe Pontiac racer into the mix. This one is listed as Tim Wolfe. The car has G/S on the window. Looks to be a '70 Judge.

At the moment, that's all I know about the car & driver.

[Rat Patrol]

DC - You wanted this.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

DC - You wanted this.

That list brings up some Pontiac questions & comments.

Don Ringer is listed as winning D/D, with Pontiac power. So, aprox what cube engine would that require ? Ya'll know anything about the car or driver ?

D/SA is Ray McClelland. Assume that was with his '62 Cat.

I/SA was John Thropp. Assume that would have been with his familiar '57 Pontiac.

H/SA was Jack Briner. I just ran across that name today. He ran a '65 2+2 Pontiac, named "Movin On".

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

That list brings up some Pontiac questions & comments.

Don Ringer is listed as winning D/D, with Pontiac power. So, aprox what cube engine would that require ? Ya'll know anything about the car or driver ?

D/SA is Ray McClelland. Assume that was with his '62 Cat.

I/SA was John Thropp. Assume that would have been with his familiar '57 Pontiac.

H/SA was Jack Briner. I just ran across that name today. He ran a '65 2+2 Pontiac, named "Movin On".

Correct on Thropp and McClelland.

[Rat Patrol]

1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/

I'm sorry, but there is just some Pontiac stuff there, which I don't understand.

If I read it right, you said a Ben Wolf '69 GTO won the B/SA class at a race. I assume you just made that up & never actually saw in print what he was driving. Also, if I read the right thing, it says that both winner & RU in B/SA were DQ'd. I'll read it again. I think it was @ Indy '69, right ?

" B/SA Ben Wolf 69 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV
400cui/370hp 4V "

Don't recall seeing any old pics of a '69 GTO running in that high a class.

I just looked thru my files of '69 GTO pics. I don't even see one that ran C/SA, much less B/SA. Most were either D or E. I assume that back then, the RA3 ran E & the RA4 ran D.

In the Spring Nats class winners lists, it shows a Ben Wolf B/SA '61 Pontiac, which ran a 12.20.

So, were BOTH the '69 GTO AND the '61 Pontiac running B/SA, in '69 ?

Maybe, it was a misprint & the car was actually the Wolf & McClelland '62 Pontiac. I have pics of it with D/SA & C/SA on the window. Maybe for '69, certain 421SD models could run B/SA ?

Might have been a lighter RA2 Bird. That sounds likely. Since the RA4 was factory rated lower in a Bird than the RA4 in a Goat, AND since the '69 Bird is lighter than the Goat, a RA4 Bird also sounds very likely. Pic 4 shows Phil Monteith's '69 RA4 Bird. He bought it new, & it ran B/SA. I vote for a Bird, NOT a Goat.

"...Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a:
69 GTO RA4
69 Bird RA4
68 Bird RA2
Nothing else seems to fit up that high..."

I just used an online calculator. Th RA4 engine would have had to have been factored up to at least 389hp in order to get the 3500lb '69 GTO into B-Stock. Then it would have been real heavy for the class. I just noticed that the hp factor has been only 365hp for nearly 20 years. That's 1hp lower than the RA3 engine. But, I suppose the RA4 heads are just too rare & expensive for most, as well as a clean '69 GTO body.

The Indy class winners list shows that Jack Briner won H/SA. Under the caption of the class final pic, you said the other car won. So, was the big Pontiac DQ'd ?

" Ed Merkle’s H/SA winning Fairlane convertible. (1062) "

The more I read, the more confused I am.

The list which appears to have been made up, for the '69 Nats(I assume that's Indy), don't jive with the posted list which I assume was published in the ND. So, do you have info telling who was awarded the class wins, after the DQ's were noted, or ?

" 69 NATIONALS Top Stock Class Winners "

"...D/SA – B Bunker – Pontiac GTO – 12.45 @ 110.97..."

Anyhow, the 1st list shows that a GTO won the D/SA class, with B Bunker driving. But, the official looking list shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, if both these lists are from the '69 Nats @ Indy, which list is correct ?

Can't copy & paste the ND list, but it clearly says it's a list from the '69 NHRA Nationals, & it clearly shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, who really won the class @ Indy '69 ?

Trying to go back thru those lists & get it all straight. On second look, that part about the B/SA '69 GTO was right at the bottom of the Spring Nats list, with very little space between it & the heading for the Indy info. But, that don't change the fact that I don't think a '69 GTO won B/SA, at any '69 nat event. Hey, I could be wrong. It HAS happened.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/

Awesome!
A couple things I caught:
FACTORING:
The 428/335hp-CJ R-code RamAir was factored to 360hp
The 428/335hp-CJ Q-code NonRamAir was factored to 340hp

I'm not sure on the AMX factoring, I had 400hp, not sure if 420hp fits the class or not. Curious where you found that?

WINTER:
You have Harvey's SS?/I car at 340hp, which is the correct factor, but most places you list the factory rated hp, not NHRA factored.

SPRING:
Re SS/Eliminator SS/GA Poole, there were NO 428-2x4v Cobra Jets. All single 4v. The SS/GA Cobra Jets were R-code ram air factored at 360hp.

The B/SA=8.00 Ben Wolf car:
Bottom line is I dont know WHAT that car was.
No 68-69 Pontiac fits B/SA=8.00 class unless the engine was factored way above its factory rating.
The only factoring I've heard on the 400 Pontiacs is that:
* ALMOST always, the FIrebirds were refactored to the GTO rating
* The RA4 was factored to 380hp, at least in 1970-71. I've always assumed that was true for 1969 as well.
* The RA2 had to be factored to about 375hp in 1970-71 for eg the Truman Fields car to run where it did, D/S=8.50 class in 1971.

Is it POSSIBLE that the RA4 was factored to at least 395hp, maybe 410-425hp, to allow the FIrebird or GTO to fit the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 win?
Sure, but I have no direct evidence this happened. That nmeant the RA4 got factored DOWN to 380hp in 1970, and down-factoring was rare but not unheard of.

So, we just dont know.
A 69 Firebird has to be factored to at least 395hp to fit B/SA=8.00.
A 69 GTO has to be factored to at least 415hp to fit B/SA=8.00.
Maybe the Ben Wolf car wasnt even a Pontiac? Do we know?

The F/SA=10.00 Dick Simon car, again I still dont know WHAT it was. His Fairlane ragtop doesnt fit that class with any engine. Coulda been a Fairlane but not the ragtop.

INDY:
I like seeing that big Pontiac win with the 421-6v under there. Not a usual combo you see winning at a National event.

The picture of the Roush 69 Mustang Ragtop 1511 SS/HA=9.50 is at the 71 Nationals, not the 69 Nationals. In 1969, SS/HA=9.00 class and the ragtop was too heavy for that class.

Allie would have run a 69 Fastback or Coupe in 1969=SS/HA=9.00 class, not sure which one either fits.

They used to play with the class letters almost every year back then, super confusing.

FOMOCO:
The big (3600 lb shipping wt, over 3800 lb on the street) Fastback Cobra/Cyclone indeed won several in SS/J=10.00 and SS/JA=10.00 classes. I have
Winter
Payne SS/J
Caster SS/JA
Spring
Payne SS/J
Glidden SS/JA
Indy
Johnson SS/JA Cyclone

The only time that combo did NOT win was SS/J at Indy, won by a little cussball Chevy II 327/275hp. Those cars are so light they're known to pop the windshields out if the car hooks up with the stock unibody.

CHEVY:
The ZL1 NHRA weight is 3124 lb not 2800 lb.
The L79 66 Nova came in at 2800 lb though.

PONTIAC:
The Max Sterling picture is not a 62 Cat 421/405sd.
I think that picture in your writeup is a 61, maybe his previous car?
Here is a picture from Petersen of Max's *62* White Lightning car

https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=316653

Confusing because both cars are #1310.
Glad we have oldskool here because all this Pontiac stuff is very confusing, still.

MOPAR:
AFAIK the Street Hemi was always factored to 480hp, 1966-71.

All in all a superbly enjoyable writeup.
Great service to history.

EDIT: I did this post 29 October, but did some edits on 30 October, just put them in here to keep it all in 1 spot. Still catching up on pgs 11-15 of the thread!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

That list brings up some Pontiac questions & comments.

Don Ringer is listed as winning D/D, with Pontiac power. So, aprox what cube engine would that require ? Ya'll know anything about the car or driver ?

D/SA is Ray McClelland. Assume that was with his '62 Cat.

I/SA was John Thropp. Assume that would have been with his familiar '57 Pontiac.

H/SA was Jack Briner. I just ran across that name today. He ran a '65 2+2 Pontiac, named "Movin On".

Based on the D/D class my guess would be he was running a dragster.


Stan

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Based on the D/D class my guess would be he was running a dragster.


Stan

Stan. The D to the right of the slash mark tells us the car was a dragster. You know, there are A/Dragster, B/Dragster, C/Dragster, etc.

What I'm wanting to know is what size the Pontiac engine was, in that car. By running a D, as compared to an A, B, or C, I'd assume the car either had a small cube engine, OR it was heavier than most higher classed dragsters.

I think Pontiac had a 287, 317, 326, & 347, that could have been used. Or it could have been a 350 or larger engine, in a heavier dragster, I suppose. Could have even been a "Trophy 4", I suppose. Don't have a clue.

And, I know it is a long shot, but hoping somebody might know this car & maybe even have pics. Don't know without asking.