Pontiacs

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

The 65 cc camber volume shown on your link came from PMD not anything that NHRA made up.


Stan

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

The info on Class Racer Info shows the max compression to be 12.49. Pontiac never advertised a '68 D-port 400 with near that much compression. Don't take a genius to figure out that the 65cc number is NOT the size of the chamber, from the factory. The deck height is listed at .000. Everybody knows that the Pontiac engines did not have zero deck height. The pistons were in the hole, some say, over .020. BUT, NHRA will ALLOW the racer to have zero deck height.

I have no idea where you got that info. The only '68 up chambers that I've seen advertised near that small are on the 350HO heads. The Class Racer Info site shows the NHRA min chamber size to be 61cc, which will give the engine much more compression than they had from the factory.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, you're saying that PMD purposely gave NHRA bad incorrect info that would increase performance & NHRA never questioned or checked it ???

That don't sound reasonable to me. AND, the way many Stock racers are, I figure that by now some racer of a different brand would have complained to NHRA & got the legal numbers changed.

But hey, what do I know.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

So, you're saying that PMD purposely gave NHRA bad incorrect info that would increase performance & NHRA never questioned or checked it ???

Oldskool, I think that you'll find that a lot of the NHRA specs. are on the "tight" side. Some might just be a little "tighter" than others.

As far as your zero deck Pontiacs, the deck on the 301s is +.018. But I know that they're not real Pontiacs.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by billy nees

oldskool, i think that you'll find that a lot of the nhra specs. Are on the "tight" side. Some might just be a little "tighter" than others.

As far as your zero deck pontiacs, the deck on the 301s is +.018. But i know that they're not real pontiacs.

lol !

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

The info on Class Racer Info shows the max compression to be 12.49. Pontiac never advertised a '68 D-port 400 with near that much compression. Don't take a genius to figure out that the 65cc number is NOT the size of the chamber, from the factory. The deck height is listed at .000. Everybody knows that the Pontiac engines did not have zero deck height. The pistons were in the hole, some say, over .020. BUT, NHRA will ALLOW the racer to have zero deck height.

I have no idea where you got that info. The only '68 up chambers that I've seen advertised near that small are on the 350HO heads. The Class Racer Info site shows the NHRA min chamber size to be 61cc, which will give the engine much more compression than they had from the factory.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, you're saying that PMD purposely gave NHRA bad incorrect info that would increase performance & NHRA never questioned or checked it ???

That don't sound reasonable to me. AND, the way many Stock racers are, I figure that by now some racer of a different brand would have complained to NHRA & got the legal numbers changed.

But hey, what do I know.

It seem you do not understand how increasing bore and stroke the legal amounts (engines ci's) while holding the other specs constant will increase CR to be higher than the stock engines CR.


The 12.49:1 is nothing more than Dwight doing the math for you.


Stan

[oldskool]

",,,It seem you do not understand how increasing bore and stroke the legal amounts (engines ci's) while holding the other specs constant will increase CR to be higher than the stock engines CR..."

Stan, I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

BUT I did finish high school & 3 years of college. Made pretty good grades in math, up to, but not including trig.

I DO understand that if you increase the size of the hole and/or the length of the stroke, the cubes & compression will increase. Volume of valve reliefs, deck height, gasket thickness/hole size, piston to cyl wall clearance, & distance to the top of the top ring are also involved in figuring true compression.

BUT, the MAIN thing I'M talkin about is the SMALL size of the min chamber size allowed, which is much smaller than any figure I've ever heard of, or read about, that Pontiac ever advertised, or that any Pontiac guy has ever actually measured. MAYBE somebody at GM did actually provide NHRA with the small chamber sizes, & NHRA just took their word for it & didn't even check. I DON"T KNOW !

Hey, I'm not suggesting that I think NHRA should do anything that will make ANY Pontiac engine less competitive.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd like for every Pontiac V8 to have NHRA numbers that would make it competitive, in whatever class it runs.

So, what's your problem ? You & me seem to get crosswise here & on the PY forum. My suggestion is that we avoid each other as much as possible. You agree ?

[Stan Weiss]

I don't have a problem. I am just trying a have a discussion. You seem to think that these engines were built to very close tolerances at the factory. They were not. That is why people spend a lot of money to "Blueprint" them.

Stan

[oldskool]

All this got me to thinkin back on the 1st Stocker engine I had built.

The car was a '68 Bird, with the 330hp D-port engine. It was in the winter of 1974. That was back before you could go on the internet & find the info you needed. I wrote to H-O Racing Specialties & got their opinions on how the car should be set up. They were nice enuff to send me the basic info I needed.

Also wrote to NHRA & got written specs for the engine, car, & class I was building. When I saw that small combustion chamber size I realized that the machine shop would have to cut 'em down quite a bit. But, at that time I think I only had one set of the correct heads. Assuming I may need to take a little off the surface later on, for some reason, I told the machine shop guy to cut only enuff to leave at least 1cc cushion. That way the heads would pass tech, AND leave just a little meat for the future, in case it would be needed.

Well, I knew very little to nothing about engine building. But this shop had built some Stock & SS stuff, including a 389 Pontiac SS engine. So, they built my engine & I stuck it in, along with a long tail(Didn't even know they came in long & short) TH400 trans & the 9" Vitar(anybody remember them ?) converter that H-O had recommended.

Well, it wouldn't run anywhere close to the nat record, which I think, in E/SA, was a mid 12, at that time. But, it did run high 12's & my girlfriend(now wife) could cut some good lights, so she won her first 6 races in a row at local tracks. She also won the biggest race of the year(LA State Championship) at our closest track, near Monroe, LA.

Took it to a div 4 points race at LaPlace, LA. Wesley was one of the tech guys. When he took a quick glance at the car, he said that if I'd cover up the radio hole in the dash & put the correct factory fan on it, I could bring it back & he'd take a closer look. Well, we were 5 or 6 hours from home & I didn't have the correct fan. Didn't even know what fan was correct. So, we just loaded up & watched the race.

That was my introduction to competitive Stock racing. Thankfully, bracket racing came to our area that next year, & we found our place. I've always loved Stock class racing, but bracket racing worked out much better for us. I always enjoy thinkin back on all of it.

Considering what the Stock rules were back then, & what they are now, it makes me wonder why they even call the class "Stock", nowadays. Today's Stockers are quicker than the Super Stockers were, back then. Julie Biermann drives a '68 330hp Bird Stocker & turns 10.70's. That's 2 full secs quicker than we ran & almost 2 sec below the '75 E/SA nat record. Yeah, Stock ain't what it use to be.

[oldskool]

When I think of competitive Pontiac class cars, I usually think of either a GTO or a Firebird. The GTO came along a few years ahead of the Bird. So, I decided to make a list of the GTO's that come to my mind, when I think of GTO class cars. This site allows 9 pics per post. So I'll post the 1st 9 that come to my mind. Then, I may come back later & swap some out, as I think of 'em.

It's probably easier to start with the older year models & come up from there.

I'll start with '65

'65 - The Bill Knafel Pontiac "Tin Indian III", with the names Bill Abraham & Arlen Vanke on the rear fenders.

'66 - Definitely the Knafel Pontiac '66 "Trophy Car".

'67 - The green SS, pictured doin a wheelie. Don't remember now who owned it. Someone else drove it at the Winter Nats one year. Didn't run real strong, but was definitely a one-of at the track.

'68 - Tim Gillespie Stocker. MAY have been the quickest '68 GTO Stocker ever. IIRC, it ran high 10's, & made the field at Indy. Don't know of anybody running one today, unless a new owner is driving the one Adam Strang ran.

'69 - "Big Iron" Stocker. Hey, it was a nice black '69, which does it for me. The reason I don't list an orange Judge is because I hated that color when it 1st came out. That's what prevented me from buying a new '69 Judge. When I ordered my '69, that was the only color available. I think they actually called it Carousel Red. But, to me, it was ORANGE. I said: " I ain't about to ride around in no orange car". So, I ordered a silver GTO, which I later painted black. Later in the year, the Judge was available in several other colors, including silver & black.

'70 - Ray Stover's "Kathy's Clown" Stocker

'71 - Mick Leiferman's 3-time US Nats RU car.

'72 - Sonny Ray's multi nat event winning SS car

'73 - Actually, the 1st '73 that comes to mind is the one on the mag cover depicting the SD455 powered GTO that never was. But, as for a real one, it's Mick Leiferman's black one.

'74 - There have been lots of good '74's. Since only 9 pics are allowed per post, I won't post any '74 pics. I'll just mention 3 that come to mind. Rock Running's '74 US Nats class winner, Bill Rink's record holder & class winner, and Brad Koivisto's black one, which is by far the quickest ever, that I know of, having run some high 10's. Don't think any other '74 ever ran a 10, in Stock. These last 2 cars were the highest qualified Pontiacs at the div 7 race, going on today.

[oldskool]

Now for my list of 1st & 2nd gen Birds. There have been so many to choose from, I'll separate 'em into Stock & SS.

I'll post pics of 9, but will probably mention a few more.

'67 - Randi Lyn Shipp probably has the most popular one, in recent years. But, I'm gonna choose the one Bryan Phillips has run for a long time. He broke into the 10's quite a few years ago, & qualified really well at lots of races.

'68 - There have been LOTS of strong '68's, thru the years. It's hard to pick just one. BUT, I'll pick the '68 that won TWO US Nats, in '73 & '77, with different owners/drivers.

'69 - That will have to be John Schloes' Bird. Ran a RAIV 'til it cracked a head. Still runs mid-10's, with a D-port engine.

'70 - That'll have to be the quickest Pontiac powered Stocker, ever, owned & driven by Scott Burton.

'71 - Scott Burton ran strong with a Bird listed as a '71. I'm not sure if it was the same Bird he later changed over to the '70 RAIV car, or not.

'72 - That'll be the car that Scott's son Brad has raced for quite awhile, in which he won 2 nat Stock championships.

'73 - That'll be the famous Herslow & Morlock SD455 cover car.

'74 - I'll choose the Mulry & Aceves Bird. Bob Mulry drove it to LOTS of #1 qualifying positions, some more than 1.5 sec under the index. They also set the J/SA & K/SA nat records with it, in Formula trim, then changed it to Trans Am trim & set the L/SA nat record.

'75 - Ryan Warter has won the Northwest Nats & some smaller races with his '75 Formy.

'76 - Mike Morgan won class @ Indy with his '76 Bird, which is now owned by Kevin Love, in Canada.

'77 - This is another year model which has had LOTS of good Bird Stockers, many of which were nat record holders. But, I suppose I'll choose the Bird that Don Holmes drove for many years, which Rob Holmes is still running.

'78 - Lots of '78 Birds were probably switched over to '77 trim, when it made 'em more competitive. So, I won't choose a '78 Stocker.

'79 - Since the '79 400 Pontiac engine only came with a stick, I've never known of a Pontiac powered '79 Bird Stocker.

'80 -'81 - Of course there have been a few 301T Bird Stockers. Neil Smedley won a big race with one. Recently, Rick Unterseh has the only one I'm aware of. His car runs pretty strong. I know he was #1 qualifier at least once. He's posted that he's bought another 301T former Stocker & will rig it up for his wife to drive, IIRC.

[oldskool]

Now for my list of SS 1st & 2nd gen Birds.

'67 - Gonna go way back & pick the one that was sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac & Gratiot Motor Supply. It won races & was a nat record holder, driven by Tony Knieper.

'68 - I'll pick the Roy & Mike McKinney Bird.

'69 - This will have to be the 1st reg SS Pontiac in the 9's, driven by Keri Angeles & owned by her Dad, John.

'70-'71 - Can't think of any '70-'71 SS Birds, right off. ​Will have to look back thru my pics.

'72 - This will be the Gary Moore Bird. SS-J record holder. A guy from TX sent me a PM saying that this car was originally a '71 455HO car, then was changed over to a '72, later. Can't verify. A close-up of the pic I'm posting clearly shows a '72 honeycomb grill.

'73 - Once the '73 SD455 Birds came out, there were several of these on the track. Herslow & Morlock switched their Stocker to SS. John Clegg did the same. Bob Michael rigged one up, which was later raced by Don Kennedy. The Clegg's recently redid their '73 & got it down into the mid-9's.

'74 - There have also been quite a few '74 SS Birds. Some are still running. But, I'll have to choose the nat record holding H-O Racing Specialties T/A. I've read that it's the same '74 which the Cleggs own, which they got down into the mid 9's.

'75-'76 - Can't think of a single one from these years.

'77 - Of course, this one will have to be the 350 powered Formy raced by Sal Piacentini, and now by Mike Morgan. It's won class at Indy & RU in class, to Bill Rink, a couple of times.

'78 - The former Ken Shawver '78 is one of the most famous Pontiac SS Birds of this century, I suppose. Several times a class winner at Indy, as well as #1 qualifier one year. Driven some by Monte Howard, now owned by Jack Good.