Index Change Rumor

[dartman]

What is the end game here.What are we trying to accomplish by changing the system.

[Ron Ortiz]

Robbie, not picking on Fords or the people that operate them, it was referencing gracious gift to the 302 to make them instantly #1 Q, in a multitude of body combos. I mean come on BJ out west battered that combo several times and can still go 1 second under if she wanted to. But that's another story, this one is about a rumor that several racers would like to see come true.
Pete, I wrote to them people twice, with graphs and comparison sheets when the Buicks, and the Banana car (Cutlass) were dropped into U/SA, all they did was give the Dodges with a better carb an even weight break with me. Guess they could care less about a station wagon in U/SA and I've given up hope and any form of goodness coming from Glendora.
Bob, I've had so many defeats in Class that I consider it a one time time trial.
OK, time to come clean, I do it for the money.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Ron Ortiz

Robbie, not picking on Fords or the people that operate them, it was referencing gracious gift to the 302 to make them instantly #1 Q, in a multitude of body combos. I mean come on BJ out west battered that combo several times and can still go 1 second under if she wanted to. But that's another story, this one is about a rumor that several racers would like to see come true.
Pete, I wrote to them people twice, with graphs and comparison sheets when the Buicks, and the Banana car (Cutlass) were dropped into U/SA, all they did was give the Dodges with a better carb an even weight break with me. Guess they could care less about a station wagon in U/SA and I've given up hope and any form of goodness coming from Glendora.
Bob, I've had so many defeats in Class that I consider it a one time time trial.
OK, time to come clean, I do it for the money.

Ron
The truth of the matter is that the 302 Ford went from a ridiculous 200 hp where a very good car could just run the index to factory hp. You complain about BJ's car without ever seeing it. Believe me it wasn't instantly #1 material. That car is a VERY good car with all of the tricks . A lot of time and money was spent on that combination and it's not my first rodeo. The HP is about right now. Almost any class has cars that can run 1.3 to 1.5 under. They just don't show it.

[Ron Ortiz]

Mike, I was referencing your car as it was the fastest out of all of them. I know that you flogged it to get it where it is at, and I trust Billy's judgement on how hard you two work, but it was a real nice gift to begin with. I bet you could go .5 under to begin with. I mention you both as you hit that index several times, and still can run way under. Mind you I'm not talking about you, it is your combo that most of the racing community knew was going to be fast to begin with, that NHRA allowed.
When I first got my car, it fit real nice into U/SA also, and after years I got to go pretty fast, but never 1 second under, they kept lowering the index or the Dodges would get hit with HP and me too.
My concern is with the index getting lowered.

[nhramnl]

Originally Posted by dartman

What is the end game here.What are we trying to accomplish by changing the system.

I've been reading this thread daily, and have come to exactly the same point as the gentleman above. What does dropping the indexes actually do? If a guy with a 1.35 under combination has his index dropped by, say, 3 tenths, he's now got a 1.05 under combination. If he's a consistent class winner/number 1 qualifier, he'll still be at that point, because the guys who are always close to him have their "capability number" dropped by the same margin. Do people think the guys who can run 1.20/1.30/1.40 under will take out the weight, put the timing back where it should be, shift at the "real" RPM, etc., because the index is lower? They won't. They'll just continue to win class and qualify number 1, but now at 1.00 under. And I hear (but don't agree with) the argument that "It's a performance class". It hasn't been a performance class for decades. It's a "money and combination class". If you can afford the cost, you can either spend enough to make a bad combination good, or you can just buy a combination that's crazy soft, and run it, until it gets horsepower factor-neutralized. To prove my point, has anyone seen a situation where a traditionally fast guy got slow, over time? They just keep spending, or (more commonly), changing cars and/or combinations. Used to be that the sharpest, hardest-working guys were the fast ones, but those days are LONG gone. The people who cry and say the current system's unfair should remember that first, they made the conscious decision to race Stock or Super Stock; second, all they have to do go become a winner is open their wallet; and third, there are alternatives, like Super Gas, Super Comp, Top Dragster, Top Sportsman, etc., where every car is "fast enough" to win.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by nhramnl

......It's a "money and combination class". If you can afford the cost, you can either spend enough to make a bad combination good, or you can just buy a combination that's crazy soft, and run it, until it gets horsepower factor-neutralized. To prove my point, has anyone seen a situation where a traditionally fast guy got slow, over time? They just keep spending, or (more commonly), changing cars and/or combinations.

Nothing new here. This is how things have been since the very beginning.

Used to be that the sharpest, hardest-working guys were the fast ones, but those days are LONG gone.....

Sorry, but I feel you are wrong on this. Having the resources to run makes life easier, but it still takes a thought and effort to go fast.


I think that a lot of guys perspective is stuck in the past. The cost to run a competitive Class car hasn't changed particularly when compared to income statistics. A new Camaro cost around $3,000.00 in the sixties. They are now $30,000.00 plus. Paying $3,000.00 for a new car and then spending the money to be a "player" back then was big money. Maybe some people have just lost the enthusiasm that is part of youth?

[James Perrone]

Stop crying Wolf. They ain’t lowering the indexes. It makes no sense
The only place to straighten out horsepower is....
INDY.. Put the 120 under hit on the SOFT *** Combos.
It’s the only race that draws the bogus cars .. for some reason you folks don’t see why it’s needed. But you all will complain so and so is too fast. No more Indy charity
Indy is a joke.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by James Perrone

No more Indy charity. Indy is a joke.

Hey Paco,the "bogus" stuff doesn't go to Indy.

[nhramnl]

Originally Posted by GUMP

Nothing new here. This is how things have been since the very beginning.

Sorry, but I feel you are wrong on this. Having the resources to run makes life easier, but it still takes a thought and effort to go fast.


I think that a lot of guys perspective is stuck in the past. The cost to run a competitive Class car hasn't changed particularly when compared to income statistics. A new Camaro cost around $3,000.00 in the sixties. They are now $30,000.00 plus. Paying $3,000.00 for a new car and then spending the money to be a "player" back then was big money. Maybe some people have just lost the enthusiasm that is part of youth?

Really? I've seen an awful lot of rich strokes who know little or nothing about cars, who decide they're tired of golf or tennis, and want to be a super star in drag racing. These guy just keep writing checks until they have the prettiest, fastest car in whatever class they choose. And the hard workers, who are spending money they actually WORKED to earn, standby helplessly, while the lawyer, banker, insurance executive, real estate mogul, corporate executive, trust fund recipient, etc. runs them over. Want an example? SS/AH.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by nhramnl

Really? I've seen an awful lot of rich strokes who know little or nothing about cars, who decide they're tired of golf or tennis, and want to be a super star in drag racing. These guy just keep writing checks until they have the prettiest, fastest car in whatever class they choose. And the hard workers, who are spending money they actually WORKED to earn, standby helplessly, while the lawyer, banker, insurance executive, real estate mogul, corporate executive, trust fund recipient, etc. runs them over. Want an example? SS/AH.

So, you are saying that money in class racing is a new thing?

I also find it interesting that you have the perspective that people with money didn't earn it. I guess nobody ever worked their way up to the top? Nobody ever put racing to the side to build a career? Heaven forbid that somebody like that should spend their hard earned money to have nice stuff. Is it now a sin to pay smart, hard working people to catch up?