If an advocate could be found - what would you say?

[SS/1230]

Originally Posted by 1320racer

Somebody please enlighten me to these alleged important issues and the implied failing health of NHRA Sportsman Racing.

I'm not entirely sure how the issues aren't obvious. Contingency for one has become a joke. Even if you do win, you have to fight for every penny. That's only if the company doesn't create a loophole (i.e Weld racing rims creating a "purchase in the last 3 years" rule. Who the hell buys rims every 3 years). How about the lack of payout for divisional and national level? Entry fees continue to go up, yet the pay outs go down.The reason national events have been lowering quota lists is because it becomes a 6 round race. Meaning that if you get to the final 4 cars (semi-finals), and you lose, they only have to pay you 5th round loss money and not semi-final money. Which is less than if you were in the semi-final of a 7 round race, another $$ loophole. I've experience that first hand at a national event. Also, at the divisional level, they pay $250 for semi-final loss in a 7 round race in super stock. That's a joke, when it cost $225 for my wife and I to get in. What about all the merchandise and promo stuff racers used to get at the gates of a National event? If anyone still has their blue Powerade cooler they'll know what I'm saying. (As an example) I remember getting that cooler full with random stuff. That was when National Event were $210, and if you won or R/U Valvoline would pay you at the track for every sticker without question. Now you win less $, can't get paid from contingency, and it cost $370 to get into a national event. I don't know how any of this can show how NHRA is treating sportsman racers the way they should. I think we're the back bone of NHRA, the passion of this sport, and we get treated the worst. How many racers are under 35 that are able to pay and race on their own budget without a 1st generation paying the way? I'd say less that 2%. They are making it impossible to attract new young blood and for the current ones survive. When the older generation of racers retire, what generation will continue to make the sportsman ranks grow? No such thing as racing on a budget anymore. They turned it into a rich mans sport, and they wonder why car counts are down... their solution, "lets just lower qoutas then, problem solved..."

[Carguy49]

I remember a story of a west coast racer having so much stuff when he returned from Indy years ago he was glad that he raced a station wagon so it would all fit. Times certainly have changed.

[Lenny5160]

Originally Posted by SS/1230

The reason national events have been lowering quota lists is because it becomes a 6 round race. Meaning that if you get to the final 4 cars (semi-finals), and you lose, they only have to pay you 5th round loss money and not semi-final money. Which is less than if you were in the semi-final of a 7 round race, another $$ loophole. I've experience that first hand at a national event.

All-in-all a great post, but let's keep the complaints legitimate. I can't speak for past flyers but today, there is no 'semi-final money' in the purse listing.

I don't think they are turning away 10-20 entry fees so they can screw the semi-finalists out of $100 each.

[1320racer]

Originally Posted by SS/1230

I'm not entirely sure how the issues aren't obvious. Contingency for one has become a joke. Even if you do win, you have to fight for every penny. That's only if the company doesn't create a loophole (i.e Weld racing rims creating a "purchase in the last 3 years" rule. Who the hell buys rims every 3 years).

How is that NHRA's fault or doing. The fact is many in the aftermarket performance industry no longer see the benefit to pay us for using their product, we are going to buy it regardless and it's no longer a marketing tool with internet websites and social media. As I stated in a previous post, not one company that I'm aware of has closed their doors after pulling out of the contingency program and I'll bet it has help most if not all's bottom line. That said, there are still companies that want to support racers and the NHRA and do.

How about the lack of payout for divisional and national level? Entry fees continue to go up, yet the pay outs go down.The reason national events have been lowering quota lists is because it becomes a 6 round race. Meaning that if you get to the final 4 cars (semi-finals), and you lose, they only have to pay you 5th round loss money and not semi-final money. Which is less than if you were in the semi-final of a 7 round race, another $$ loophole. I've experience that first hand at a national event.

That's your assumption not fact.

Also, at the divisional level, they pay $250 for semi-final loss in a 7 round race in super stock. That's a joke, when it cost $225 for my wife and I to get in.

it is what it is, no one is forcing you to play the game.

What about all the merchandise and promo stuff racers used to get at the gates of a National event? If anyone still has their blue Powerade cooler they'll know what I'm saying. (As an example) I remember getting that cooler full with random stuff. That was when National Event were $210, and if you won or R/U Valvoline would pay you at the track for every sticker without question. Now you win less $, can't get paid from contingency, and it cost $370 to get into a national event.

refer back to my comments about contingency sponsors.

I don't know how any of this can show how NHRA is treating sportsman racers the way they should. I think we're the back bone of NHRA, the passion of this sport, and we get treated the worst.

Your opinion. All I know is what I see with my own eyes. Divisionals with 300-400 cars on the property and National event quotas that are easily fill and some racers complaining they can't get in. That tells the NHRA they are doing it right!

How many racers are under 35 that are able to pay and race on their own budget without a 1st generation paying the way? I'd say less that 2%. They are making it impossible to attract new young blood and for the current ones survive. When the older generation of racers retire, what generation will continue to make the sportsman ranks grow? No such thing as racing on a budget anymore. They turned it into a rich mans sport, and they wonder why car counts are down... their solution, "lets just lower qoutas then, problem solved..."

1. your assumption.
2. young men today 17-30 are not interested in cars no mind racing.
3. ALL racing is on life support and has been for decades.
4. Racing was always expensive. I couldn't afford to compete nor could my friends when we were younger. I started when I was 30. I'll also say the NHRA never had a marketing program to attract new racers and grow.
5. you want change? Get 100s of racers to boycott divisionals and national events. Good luck with that.
Bottomline is the world changed, nothing is the same as it was least of which drag racing. Enjoy it while you still can, I will.

[SS/1230]

I understand your stance and your beliefs on some of these things. However (1320racer)....."How is that NHRA's fault or doing. The fact is many in the aftermarket performance industry no longer see the benefit to pay us for using their product, we are going to buy it regardless and it's no longer a marketing tool with internet websites and social media. As I stated in a previous post, not one company that I'm aware of has closed their doors after pulling out of the contingency program and I'll bet it has help most if not all's bottom line. That said, there are still companies that want to support racers and the NHRA and do." I personally dont care about the companies bottom line, I care about mine. We buy a product, we win, they pay us. You'd think it would be that easy. However, I get what you are saying here but you'd be crazy to think that the contingency sponsors and NHRA don't have some kind of contract that NHRA benefits from. The goal is to get us to buy the products and if we win, they pay us *if it fits the stipulations*. And guess what, even if we buy the product, and its not within the limitations, NHRA and the company still get paid. Only person who doesn't is us. NHRA is making their money and could care less if we get ours. So they play a hand in that.... NHRA isn't innocent in that sense.

Next, you think that the quotas are my assumption, not fact. But its fact that I got to the semi-final (4 cars) at a national in a 6 round race, and won 5th round loss money. $100 or not, its still a way for them to cut payout... fact.

Next, "it is what it is, no one is forcing you to play the game", doesn't mean I have to like it, and I know a majority feel the same way I do even though they still play the game.

Next, when was the last time you saw 300-400 cars at EVERY divisional in D-1? for the exception of 2018, I think Virginia had less that 50 cars in SS each of the last 3 years prior to that. Epping doesn't draw many cars either (50's in SS).. The only track that drew the most cars every year was E-town, and obviously you cant race there anymore. 2018 @ Epping: 17 cars in SG, 35 in SC, 27 in SST, 12 in Comp, 52 in SS, and 92 in stock.. thats 235 cars if you're counting.

I'm going to continue to race because its what I love to do. Fortunately I'm 1 of few young men today who is 32 and who is interested in cars and appreciates what we do. But being someone who has been around racing their whole life, I cant help but notice the changes, doesn't mean I have to like them. "Bottomline is the world changed, nothing is the same as it was least of which drag racing.." That I can agree with.

[1320racer]

Originally Posted by SS/1230

I personally dont care about the companies bottom line, I care about mine. We buy a product, we win, they pay us. You'd think it would be that easy. However, I get what you are saying here but you'd be crazy to think that the contingency sponsors and NHRA don't have some kind of contract that NHRA benefits from. The goal is to get us to buy the products and if we win, they pay us *if it fits the stipulations*. And guess what, even if we buy the product, and its not within the limitations, NHRA and the company still get paid. Only person who doesn't is us. NHRA is making their money and could care less if we get ours. So they play a hand in that.... NHRA isn't innocent in that sense.

you know what the contingency sponsor's requirements are to collect before you put their decal on your car. If you don't that's on you. That said, I'll say again, it doesn't matter, we are buying their products regardless and none of them pay unless you get to the final which the majority of racers don't and never do.

Next, you think that the quotas are my assumption, not fact. But its fact that I got to the semi-final (4 cars) at a national in a 6 round race, and won 5th round loss money. $100 or not, its still a way for them to cut payout... fact.

they are infact your assumption and the payout information is known before you enter.

Next, "it is what it is, no one is forcing you to play the game", doesn't mean I have to like it, and I know a majority feel the same way I do even though they still play the game.

another assumption. If you're right and I'm wrong, go get hundreds of racers to boycott 1 divisional and 1 national event.

Next, when was the last time you saw 300-400 cars at EVERY divisional in D-1? for the exception of 2018, I think Virginia had less that 50 cars in SS each of the last 3 years prior to that. Epping doesn't draw many cars either (50's in SS).. The only track that drew the most cars every year was E-town, and obviously you cant race there anymore. 2018 @ Epping: 17 cars in SG, 35 in SC, 27 in SST, 12 in Comp, 52 in SS, and 92 in stock.. thats 235 cars if you're counting.

There were over 300 cars at every divisional in D1 I attended last season which were all except Virginia and at most it rained some if not every day.

I'm going to continue to race because its what I love to do. Fortunately I'm 1 of few young men today who is 32 and who is interested in cars and appreciates what we do. But being someone who has been around racing their whole life, I cant help but notice the changes, doesn't mean I have to like them. "Bottomline is the world changed, nothing is the same as it was least of which drag racing.." That I can agree with.

the decline in all of motorsports started when you were in diapers. Again, stop complaining and concerning yourself with who has the $ and who is getting paid and enjoy what we do while you still can. If $ is why you do this, quit and go bracket racing. THAT'S where the BIG $ is for racers.

[Lenny5160]

Originally Posted by SS/1230

However, I get what you are saying here but you'd be crazy to think that the contingency sponsors and NHRA don't have some kind of contract that NHRA benefits from.

NHRA definitely has a hand in the contingency cookie jar, which has driven away companies that would otherwise participate. There are several companies that run independent contingency programs for this reason. I am sure (yes, Ed, I'm assuming; not fact) that other companies have just thrown up their hands and walked away from the idea.

I'm still baffled that you're upset about losing 5th round and 'only' getting 5th round loser money. "If the quotas were higher, I would have lost at 8 cars and still received 5th round loser money!"

[Gary Smith]

Originally Posted by 1320racer

Somebody please enlighten me to these alleged important issues and the implied failing health of NHRA Sportsman Racing.

Audience for one. I've seen more spectators at 4 yr old T-ball games than during sportsman runs at any national and/or LODRS event. It's no secret that fans equate to new blood. S & S/S have become too technical to attract the masses. And despite the drop in automotive enthusiasm, the new fans look to the outlaw stuff (Lights Out, No Prep etc. big dollar grudge races). There may be new cars in S/SS but the concept is far past dated.

Just my $.02

[B Parker]

More money was probably spent on promoting the t ball game than on Stock Super Stock.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

What would you say to an advocate who agreed to help with the important issues that are confronting the Sportsman racer? No, this isn't about any type of legal complaints.
Thanks in advance for any and all responsible responses.

Allrighty then, first of all, I personally believe that in most of the country NHRA Sportsman Racing is in better health than the pro program. I am very concerned about how the NHRA management appears to be putting all of it's efforts into the "big show" and neglecting the "Grassroots Program" although it appears to me that the "Grassroots Program" is where they get their working capital from.
I worry about how fragile the function of the "big show" actually is. With the small number of actual team owners that exists today, it wouldn't be impossible (not probable but not impossible) for the "big show" to lose 1/3 of it's teams. If the "big show" catastrophically folds, what happens to us?

With that off of my chest, let me get a little bit more realistic;

The costs of admission, membership, permanent numbers, crew entry (remember when a Natl. Event entry came with 2 crew passes?) etc. have steadily gone up with or beyond the rate of inflation. The NHRA "Cash" Purse hasn't risen in over 25 years. Why is that? How could Wally Parks pay out the cash purses that he could with less incoming cash? Where is the money going? To the pro show?

The NHRA Contingency Program is a shadow of it's former self and IMHO, a joke. Why is that? Does it no longer concern or benefit the powers-that-be? Did the price of entry into the program from the Manufacturers standpoint get too high? Is there no-one in charge of this program who cares about the Sportsmen?

Stock and SS Eliminators are "Performance Based" eliminators. Over the years, the powers-that-be have seen fit to "retire" (eliminate?) the knowledgeable Tech Inspectors and Tech people who are supposed to be at the Races to "police" the entries. Excepting the U.S. Nationals, there is no more "tear down", there is very little in the way of class eliminations and with the ridiculously low entry quotas, class eliminations don't mean what it used to. Who sets National Records anymore? Why is that?

The AHFS system is in dire need of fixing. What is there is way too easy to manipulate and is being over seen by people who don't understand the concept. Superseded/replacement parts has declined into hearsay.
Knowledgeable people are needed back in positions of responsibility.

I truly hope that the "Baby Gators" is a look at things to come. Class Eliminations at Divisional Races would be a pretty nice thing AND a pretty nice show!