Jones Head - Racers Only

[TILBURG]

Ok I guess I'll be the first to jump in. In no way is anything I say intended to bash mr Jones. NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time. Not saying it's all been for the best but that's for you guys to judge. But this one until somethings get cleared up I do have a problem with. The angle plug deal Im not going to waste anytime with that there are enough people on here to debate that. But if in fact the head was cast by somebody for Eric then that's a game changer in the world of aftermarket heads. That I'm not sure we should be going down. Do I feel there should be a porters head for s/s? Yes As long as its coming from a manufacturer that anybody else can call summit jegs etc and get the same thing. If the pictures that were forwarded to me were correct it's just a AFR head with the logo machined off. But I'm not here to say the photos were correct. I guess in the end my question is if they allow a person to have there own casting or control over the casting where is this going to ever end?

[Andrew Hill]

The Jones head is SS only, not stock. It’s not the first angle plug SBC head in SS, 2 of the 4 edelbrock heads accepted on a bunch of SBC are angle plug.

[TILBURG]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hill

The Jones head is SS only, not stock. It’s not the first angle plug SBC head in SS, 2 of the 4 edelbrock heads accepted on a bunch of SBC are angle plug.

Andrew, yes it's s/s only I got that part. Who's casting is it? Yes Edelbrock has angle plug heads on the list. They could put the plug in the center of the head and give it a "NHRA" part number But if the number don't match anything in the guide it's pretty much useless.
Like the post said "racer only" so if the racers spending the money don't give a s*** why am I?? I'll just step out of this and watch it unfold.

[Joey Bohannon]

Joe Bohannon
Super Stock/JA 3678

While I think it's great that people are putting in the time and effort to better the parts that are available for us to buy and race, I don't feel like they should be superior in design to the ones that are already available. That is the job of the engine builder and cylinder head Porter. For a competitor and competitive engine builder to have the ultimate control of the castings in my opinion is a bad idea. There are too many variables that can be adjusted that would make one head better than another with little ability to tell with the naked eye. Port design, valve angle, valve placement, wall thickness, all come to mind and all could be adjusted. While I'm sure Mr. Jones has a fortune tied up in this I really feel as though it would be bad for the direction of the class, not only for the other brands that these parts have to compete against but also for the individuals running similar combinations. I really wish that this could have been a discussion prior to anyone spending the amount of money that this man did as I personally would rather not see them in the class. We already have available options, why do we need more unless they are designed to supersede an existing product. I will say this, there are few people in the sport right now that's working as hard as this man is working, and he will find new ways to be fast regardless of how this turns out. Thanks for the motivation.

delete

[Alan Roehrich]

I'm going to say this as a semi retired competitor and engine builder. Take it for what it is worth.

I'm not even sure there should be a "porter's head" allowed. That's really not in the spirit of Super Stock. Not every combination has one available.

In all honesty, if there is a bare unmachined casting available for a certain head, that head shouldn't be legal.

Why? Because it is an unnecessary escalation that makes tech nearly impossible, drives the cost up even further, and defies the spirit of the class. Heads available in rough or cast form, barely machined, allowing valve seat and valve guide locations to be significantly altered, along with other modifications that would be difficult and/or cost prohibitive just aren't what the classes need.

While it is true that there were millions of small block Chevy engines built, there have also been at least half that many raced, and there have not been many replacement castings made in a long damned time. Face it, the small block Chevy is the sportsman motorsports engine.Even though it was produced for nearly 5 decades, eventually, at the rate it is raced and used in hot rods, the cores have been used up at an alarming rate.

However, there have been reasonable facsimiles of the original parts made for a while, the aftermarket has made cast iron cylinder heads with 64cc to 72cc chambers, and 164cc to 172cc ports, for decades. Those could be accepted replacements, and that should be good enough.

[Erik Jones]

Originally Posted by TILBURG

Ok I guess I'll be the first to jump in. In no way is anything I say intended to bash mr Jones. NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time. Not saying it's all been for the best but that's for you guys to judge. But this one until somethings get cleared up I do have a problem with. The angle plug deal Im not going to waste anytime with that there are enough people on here to debate that. But if in fact the head was cast by somebody for Eric then that's a game changer in the world of aftermarket heads. That I'm not sure we should be going down. Do I feel there should be a porters head for s/s? Yes As long as its coming from a manufacturer that anybody else can call summit jegs etc and get the same thing. If the pictures that were forwarded to me were correct it's just a AFR head with the logo machined off. But I'm not here to say the photos were correct. I guess in the end my question is if they allow a person to have there own casting or control over the casting where is this going to ever end?

Tilburg,

Hopefully i can clear up some of the issues with this whole deal. NHRA actually has a pretty strict guideline on their accepted products. I have been working on making parts and getting them approved and on the list for about 2 years. I have Pistons and now Cylinder Heads along with other parts like rockers, carb plates etc.. that i designed to fix specific problem. All of the NHRA accepted products have to be available to the general public and that is exactly what i have done. Anyone can buy my accepted products directly as stated on my web site.

With that being said i followed the same procedure as any of the companies on the list and waited my turn. I have heard for years that we need a smaller casting to start with so that is what i did. This is a fully machined head with seats and guides installed (in the approved location) just like the 4 other approved SBC heads on the list except i eliminated the "bogus welding" so any racer could start with the exact same platform as everyone else without the cost. In my opinion this levels the ball field. NHRA knows exactly who casts the heads because that is the first requirement on the letter that gets submitted. This is no different that the FE Pro Port casting that we have had for years.

[TILBURG]

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Tilburg,

Hopefully i can clear up some of the issues with this whole deal. NHRA actually has a pretty strict guideline on their accepted products. I have been working on making parts and getting them approved and on the list for about 2 years. I have Pistons and now Cylinder Heads along with other parts like rockers, carb plates etc.. that i designed to fix specific problem. All of the NHRA accepted products have to be available to the general public and that is exactly what i have done. Anyone can buy my accepted products directly as stated on my web site.

With that being said i followed the same procedure as any of the companies on the list and waited my turn. I have heard for years that we need a smaller casting to start with so that is what i did. This is a fully machined head with seats and guides installed (in the approved location) just like the 4 other approved SBC heads on the list except i eliminated the "bogus welding" so any racer could start with the exact same platform as everyone else without the cost. In my opinion this levels the ball field. NHRA knows exactly who casts the heads because that is the first requirement on the letter that gets submitted. This is no different that the FE Pro Port casting that we have had for years.

Erik,
Im not here to say you did anything wrong in you acceptance process with NHRA. Don't think you did. I felt like you with all the welding BS that is needed it would have been nice if they took a core they already have approved and just made the ports Smaller. Which would cut costs and free up time in small shops which is where most of these things are produced. And when something blows up it don't take 6 months to get back on the track. BUT as it was brought up to me you do that anyone can do it. Edelbrock might as well just sell you a ported head. Put that way I guess it's better to maybe rethink my thoughts on that. I wish you the very best on your endeavor and I'm sure it will be fast stuff as your stuff is. Like I said earlier if this is what the racers want feed it to them. I'm out. Only thing I did miss who owns the casting

[Sean Cour]

In the past, the decision to allow replacement aftermarket parts such as the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" for traditional Super Stock class cars, NHRA has taken the position to address three major points -- 1) the need, 2) the impact on preserving integrity and definition of the class, and 3) the resulting rise in cost. In regard to the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," it appears those criteria no longer govern NHRA's position on such matters.

So let's examine those three criteria.

1-2) Need and ensuring integrity and definition: With a large selection of mass-produced after-market cylinder heads available, there is no need for this type of head for a class with restrictions such as valve guide angle, valve spacing, etc., or in following integrity and definition. Aside from the 1993-98 fuel-injection LT1, there never was a production 265-400 cubic inch small block Chevrolet cylinder head offered with angled spark plugs.

3) Cost (a key element in allowing the legalization of the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head"). The large number of after-market cylinder heads currently available and accepted by NHRA assures some key elements are maintained, such being produced to original OEM specifications -- valve guide angles are the proper 23-degree spacing, the chamber spacing maintains OEM specs, etc. These elements are a must as these heads are designed first to be sold to the much larger market than NHRA Super Stock racers an engine-builders in as much as Super Stock head sales are a very small fraction of the market and manufacturers must be sure that these heads will be able to used in a variety of applications so as to maximize their return on investment. This in turn also ensures that no matter what major manufacturer an engine-builder or head-porter chooses, they will do their own modifications. In short, everyone is pretty much working with a "spec" cylinder head.



The "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," would be great for a class that would allow any type of modifications such as changing the valve guide angles, moving valve position, chamber location, water jacket modifications, more extensive porting , custom ports, etc. However, allowing this type of head to be used in tradition Super Stock classes only guarantees costs will climb and class integrity will be compromised. Any creative cylinder head porter will use the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" to morph current rules, making tech difficult at a time NHRA appears to be relaxing technical inspection. This would open a new area of confusion and more problems, and how to handle the next wave of porter heads. Allow one, how does NHRA say no to the next applicant? Recall the 1968 Mopar Hemi head, where the rules were allowed to morph to the point where a similar problem surfaced with the 1968 Hemi cars and before NHRA knew it, the Hemis ended up getting their own class, which has since lost some of its cache. NHRA might be better served to revisit some of the mistake of the past before making decisions that might guarantee more in the future.

In short, allowing the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" and others like it to be made legal in traditional Super Stock class racing a will only guarantee costs to go up and controversy and problems to follow.

[john ancona]

This is not good for super stock and if accepted it will eventually find its way into stock eliminator. And if you disagree just look at the cam 54 mm cam tunnel that started in super stock . This never ending line to the door step of NHRA is going to speed up the demise of super stock and take stock with it .We could debate the I eliminated the " Bogus welding " all day, but just how do you get the exhaust port from the stock configuration to the welded (brazed) D port we are using now. Tilburg is correct NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time.and the results
are creating to higher costs .