Manual trans only?

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

You should ask NHRA since they allowed the 1967 Ford Fairline R-Code 427-425HP combination to run an automatic. All the R-Code Fairline's were stick, 4-speed cars only.
When I asked NHRA many years ago, I was informed they were allowed to run an automatic because it was available in the other models of the car.
Under this premise, I believe they should allow you run an auto, the same should apply to the 1969/1970 Mustang Boss 302 and the 1971 Boss 351.
What's your opinion Billy Nees?

Do you have documentation to prove this ?

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by rawhide

I have always read that more Thunderbolts had automatics than four speeds. Most of them were switched over to four speeds pretty fast I would guess. Jody will wander in here and set it right soon I guess.

Roland

Yep you are correct!!!

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by rawhide

I have always read that more Thunderbolts had automatics than four speeds. Most of them were switched over to four speeds pretty fast I would guess. Jody will wander in here and set it right soon I guess.

Roland

That's right, IIRC MORE than half of the 1964 Thunderbolts came with the HX Lincoln auto trans, but many or most were swapped back to a 4speed. About half of the 63-64 Lightweight Galaxies (LWG, 427 LoRiser in 63, 427 HiRiser in 64) came with the Lincoln HX auto trans. Some of these were kept and did well in AA/SA.


So for 63-64, the Thunderbolt and LWG came with autos so NHRA accepts it. But there were less than 400 of those cars if you count them all. Not really "production" and I don't think you could order and get one unless you knew somebody and were a racer. But in spite of that, NHRA lets ANY 427 Galaxie run an auto trans, even though they didn't come that way in regular production cars (ie steel Galaxies) in 64-64.


We just had a big debate about this on fordfe.com and the consensus is that these cars (Thunderbolts and 63-64 LWG) were the ONLY time the solid-lifter 427 came with an auto trans.

As far as 65-up cars, and the 66-67 Fairlane/Comets:
The consensus though is that Ford did build 2 prototype 67 Fairlane 427 auto cars. But more importantly, Ford apparently LISTED the auto trans but never built any that way, and that maybe why NHRA accepts it.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+%28UPDATED%29


http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...8/427+Fairlane

I don't think the Boss 302 or Boss 351 were ever even LISTED with the auto-trans (maybe because smog standards had begun?) so NHRA would not accept them.


That's the key I think - what did the manufacturer LIST in the paperwork they gave to NHRA? It doesn't mean they had to make or sell any of them. Usually. It confuses me too.


As far as the 396/L78, NHRA lists it as legal with auto trans for the 68 Nova, but not the 68 Chevelle or 68 Camaro. Go figure.


I would be surprised if the 327/275 was a manual only combo, that sounds strange but I will look, NHRA has all that stuff on line you know.


Dwight, Greg at al, sorry I was typing too late at night, and my photographic memory (NOT) remembered 325 and 275 as the same thing, DUH.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

In an older combo, like my aging fleet of antique iron, some engine combos came with a manual trans only requirement in the Tech Bulletins. I need to update my tech bulletins, but does that stipulation still exist? Question revolves around a 68 Chevelle with a 327/325 horse engine in Stock . Has that manual trans rule been deleted?

April 1968 issue of Car Life tested a 68 Chevelle 327/275 powerglide, just an ordinary grocery getter, so I cant see how NHRA would not allow it. I have three 327/275 road tests in my database, all three are auto trans.


Those NHRA Excel sheets are not error free for sure, they have both typos, cut&paste errors on the weights, and just plain history errors. Maybe bring it to their attention and they will change it or defend it!


OOPS once again I was typing too late at night, I had 275hp in my tired eyes instead of 325hp. All the road tests I have on the L79 are 4speed only, nothing I can add there. So unless Chevy submitted some specific documents to NHRA that said "also offered with automatic" as Ford apparently did with the 66-67 Fairlane/Comet, I can see why NHRA would not allow it.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Stephen & Horace Johnson

Do you have documentation to prove this ?

Yes I do.
I have a reprint of the Ford Total Performance manual which shows the W and R-Code package details.

It shows the W and R-Code car with a Top Loader. It also shows the R-Code, with a fiberglass hood with scoop. Both cars were equipped with a 2.32 1st gear Top Loader from the factory.
No W or R-Code cars with an automatic.

[troublemaker427]

Originally Posted by rawhide

I have always read that more Thunderbolts had automatics than four speeds. Most of them were switched over to four speeds pretty fast I would guess. Jody will wander in here and set it right soon I guess.

Roland

Yup, your correct sir!! More autos than sticks in the 1964 Thunderbolts. DST did offer a auto to stick conversion kit because those big heavy Lincoln transmissions sucked pretty bad....

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Yes I do.
I have a reprint of the Ford Total Performance manual which shows the W and R-Code package details.

It shows the W and R-Code car with a Top Loader. It also shows the R-Code, with a fiberglass hood with scoop. Both cars were equipped with a 2.32 1st gear Top Loader from the factory.
No W or R-Code cars with an automatic.

Then your documentations are wrong....

[Dwight Southerland]

SSDiv6 - While a Ford Performance Manual is a noteworthy publication, it hardly satisfies NHRA's nor history's requirement for documentation. The documentation that NHRA Tech has available and that is used as their reference includes what was submitted by the manufacturers to NHRA via request and via "official" publications from the manufacturers.

While I am not sure about the 1966 year model, the 1967 solid lifter 427 cars have been raced with automatic transmissions since their introduction. It just so happens that the collective social mentality of the racer group who campaigned them was predominantly ruled by people with stick shift preference, as was the majority of Stock and Super Stock racing during the 1960s and 1970s, so you do not see many. Dick Simon started racing a 1967 Fairlane 500 XL convertible with a 427-410 engine and automatic transmission in1973 and the amount of research that went into the verification of that combination for NHRA competition was extensive. Lots of people questioned the legality of that car over a period of years, even into the 1980s, yet NHRA substantiated its legality time and again. Supposedly, Dick's car was an assembly line car that was ordered as regular production offerings and Dick purchased the car from the original owner.

Some of the confusion happens due to the statement that DeuceCoupe made that "Ford apparently LISTED the auto trans but never built any that way, and that maybe why NHRA accepts it." If you look at the Class Guide in all the manufacturers for the pre-1967 cars, you will see legal combinations available that the manufacturers likely never built. It is the requirement that allowed Richard Charbonneau to race the 427 Fairlane station wagon, the many Max Wedge station wagons and possibly other oddball cars that I am not familiar with. Part of the reality of such combinations is that until the 1970s, there were few "purpose built" Stock Eliminator race cars, so 99% of the cars that showed up to race were assembly line combinations and few questioned the legality of them, especially when they were in the Class Guide. The Tri-Five Sedan Deliveries and four-speed cars muddied the waters for us all, however, and it has been a fight to maintain accuracy ever since.


DeuceCoupe - The 327-275 equipped Chevelles are not the same animal as the 327-325 engines. It's like comparing a 396-325 with a 396-375. Also, the 1968 Chevelle 396-375 is listed with an automatic transmission, whether it was ever available or not.

During the 1960s and up into the 1970s, GM and Ford had little reason to develop high performance automatic transmissions, since enough market demand was not there. Also, warranties and service were always issues for the high performance combinations so they limited the availability of automatic combinations with their hot rod engines. MoPar developed their automatic transmissions hot rod combinations mostly for drag racing and the success there carried over to their production cars. But, looking at their production cars on the street, there were no radical spec’ed high performance engines built for until the late 1960s. But even then, the Street Hemi had mild drivability characteristics compared to a rowdy high-cammed small block Chevy. Chevy's (and other GM products) high performance engines were directed to the street hot rodder, however, and the engineering had to be directed toward what their dealers and customers would be able to deal with. Long duration cams, finicky carburetors and such did not lend themselves to customer satisfaction in a daily driver basis with the crummy automatic transmissions they had. So one way to limit the customer base and reduce the potential complaints was to make those engines available only with manual transmissions. They didn’t want Joe Average to be lured into thinking that buying a car with an engine that required an enthusiast’s level of attention would be okay with the wife if it had an automatic transmission. That practice goes way back into the 1950s Corvette engines and continued for a long time. Ford tended to follow the same thinking, except for rare considerations, so the Boss 302, Boss 351, 289-271, etc. were manual transmission engines only.

So, to consider that the 327-325 or the 327-350 (same engine, different carb) was ever available with an automatic transmission does not fit the historical practice of GM. The only concession of those engines was that they had hydraulic lifters, which was a first for a high performance Chevrolet, but not the automatic transmission.

[Greg Reimer 7376]

Somewhere we got a little off here.I was originally talking about the fairly rare 327/325 horse engine. That differed from the rest of them by having 11.00 or so to 1 compression with domed forged pistons, the #151 hydraulic camshaft, 2.02/1.600 valves,and an iron intake with a Quadrajet. The 275 had flat top pistons, 1.94 intakes,1.500 exhausts, a smaller cam and around 10.00 to one compression. It came in the entire product line. Most of them were in full sized cars,such as Grandma's barge 9 passenger Impala wagons. The 250 horse 327 was the same short block and intake and carb, but with small intake low compression heads. The 275 was available with an automatic all day long. The 250 horse,for whatever reason, only came in Chevelles,Impala's,etc. and 1/2 ton pickup trucks. Might have been a fun class race motor in a Camaro or Nova!

[Alan Nyhus]

Greg, the '68 327-325's (RPO L79) were, as correctly stated, never available with an automatic. And while NHRA has taken some liberties by allowing autos in some combos, this one has remained a 'stick only' in the NHRA Classification guide.

'68 L79 production figures:
-Chevelle: 4082
-Chevy II: 1274
-Corvette: 9440

Oddly, the '68 L79 in the Corvette was rated at 350 hp while the same engine in the Nova and Chevelle was at 325 hp. All '68 L79's used a Quadrajet, regardess of body style.

For what it's worth...... -Al