Manual trans only?

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by SStockDart

Thunderbolt was only available with 4 speed (I believe). Now runs Stock with automatic??

1967 Fairline R-Code; Thunderbolt is a 1964 car.

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

You should ask NHRA since they allowed the 1967 Ford Fairline R-Code 427-425HP combination to run an automatic. All the R-Code Fairline's were stick, 4-speed cars only.
When I asked NHRA many years ago, I was informed they were allowed to run an automatic because it was available in the other models of the car.
Under this premise, I believe they should allow you run an auto, the same should apply to the 1969/1970 Mustang Boss 302 and the 1971 Boss 351.
What's your opinion Billy Nees?

Do you have documentation to prove this ?

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Stephen & Horace Johnson

Do you have documentation to prove this ?

Yes I do.
I have a reprint of the Ford Total Performance manual which shows the W and R-Code package details.

It shows the W and R-Code car with a Top Loader. It also shows the R-Code, with a fiberglass hood with scoop. Both cars were equipped with a 2.32 1st gear Top Loader from the factory.
No W or R-Code cars with an automatic.

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Yes I do.
I have a reprint of the Ford Total Performance manual which shows the W and R-Code package details.

It shows the W and R-Code car with a Top Loader. It also shows the R-Code, with a fiberglass hood with scoop. Both cars were equipped with a 2.32 1st gear Top Loader from the factory.
No W or R-Code cars with an automatic.

Then your documentations are wrong....

[Dwight Southerland]

SSDiv6 - While a Ford Performance Manual is a noteworthy publication, it hardly satisfies NHRA's nor history's requirement for documentation. The documentation that NHRA Tech has available and that is used as their reference includes what was submitted by the manufacturers to NHRA via request and via "official" publications from the manufacturers.

While I am not sure about the 1966 year model, the 1967 solid lifter 427 cars have been raced with automatic transmissions since their introduction. It just so happens that the collective social mentality of the racer group who campaigned them was predominantly ruled by people with stick shift preference, as was the majority of Stock and Super Stock racing during the 1960s and 1970s, so you do not see many. Dick Simon started racing a 1967 Fairlane 500 XL convertible with a 427-410 engine and automatic transmission in1973 and the amount of research that went into the verification of that combination for NHRA competition was extensive. Lots of people questioned the legality of that car over a period of years, even into the 1980s, yet NHRA substantiated its legality time and again. Supposedly, Dick's car was an assembly line car that was ordered as regular production offerings and Dick purchased the car from the original owner.

Some of the confusion happens due to the statement that DeuceCoupe made that "Ford apparently LISTED the auto trans but never built any that way, and that maybe why NHRA accepts it." If you look at the Class Guide in all the manufacturers for the pre-1967 cars, you will see legal combinations available that the manufacturers likely never built. It is the requirement that allowed Richard Charbonneau to race the 427 Fairlane station wagon, the many Max Wedge station wagons and possibly other oddball cars that I am not familiar with. Part of the reality of such combinations is that until the 1970s, there were few "purpose built" Stock Eliminator race cars, so 99% of the cars that showed up to race were assembly line combinations and few questioned the legality of them, especially when they were in the Class Guide. The Tri-Five Sedan Deliveries and four-speed cars muddied the waters for us all, however, and it has been a fight to maintain accuracy ever since.


DeuceCoupe - The 327-275 equipped Chevelles are not the same animal as the 327-325 engines. It's like comparing a 396-325 with a 396-375. Also, the 1968 Chevelle 396-375 is listed with an automatic transmission, whether it was ever available or not.

During the 1960s and up into the 1970s, GM and Ford had little reason to develop high performance automatic transmissions, since enough market demand was not there. Also, warranties and service were always issues for the high performance combinations so they limited the availability of automatic combinations with their hot rod engines. MoPar developed their automatic transmissions hot rod combinations mostly for drag racing and the success there carried over to their production cars. But, looking at their production cars on the street, there were no radical spec’ed high performance engines built for until the late 1960s. But even then, the Street Hemi had mild drivability characteristics compared to a rowdy high-cammed small block Chevy. Chevy's (and other GM products) high performance engines were directed to the street hot rodder, however, and the engineering had to be directed toward what their dealers and customers would be able to deal with. Long duration cams, finicky carburetors and such did not lend themselves to customer satisfaction in a daily driver basis with the crummy automatic transmissions they had. So one way to limit the customer base and reduce the potential complaints was to make those engines available only with manual transmissions. They didn’t want Joe Average to be lured into thinking that buying a car with an engine that required an enthusiast’s level of attention would be okay with the wife if it had an automatic transmission. That practice goes way back into the 1950s Corvette engines and continued for a long time. Ford tended to follow the same thinking, except for rare considerations, so the Boss 302, Boss 351, 289-271, etc. were manual transmission engines only.

So, to consider that the 327-325 or the 327-350 (same engine, different carb) was ever available with an automatic transmission does not fit the historical practice of GM. The only concession of those engines was that they had hydraulic lifters, which was a first for a high performance Chevrolet, but not the automatic transmission.

[Greg Reimer 7376]

Somewhere we got a little off here.I was originally talking about the fairly rare 327/325 horse engine. That differed from the rest of them by having 11.00 or so to 1 compression with domed forged pistons, the #151 hydraulic camshaft, 2.02/1.600 valves,and an iron intake with a Quadrajet. The 275 had flat top pistons, 1.94 intakes,1.500 exhausts, a smaller cam and around 10.00 to one compression. It came in the entire product line. Most of them were in full sized cars,such as Grandma's barge 9 passenger Impala wagons. The 250 horse 327 was the same short block and intake and carb, but with small intake low compression heads. The 275 was available with an automatic all day long. The 250 horse,for whatever reason, only came in Chevelles,Impala's,etc. and 1/2 ton pickup trucks. Might have been a fun class race motor in a Camaro or Nova!

[Alan Nyhus]

Greg, the '68 327-325's (RPO L79) were, as correctly stated, never available with an automatic. And while NHRA has taken some liberties by allowing autos in some combos, this one has remained a 'stick only' in the NHRA Classification guide.

'68 L79 production figures:
-Chevelle: 4082
-Chevy II: 1274
-Corvette: 9440

Oddly, the '68 L79 in the Corvette was rated at 350 hp while the same engine in the Nova and Chevelle was at 325 hp. All '68 L79's used a Quadrajet, regardess of body style.

For what it's worth...... -Al