Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[oldskool]

Breaker !

I interrupt this thread to call attention to a nice lookin '72 Grand Prix. Has a 400 Pontiac with some good parts in it, TH400 with brake, and a 12 bolt rear end. Car has a lot of other good parts on it. Has run 11.70's. Check it out.

http://www.racingjunk.com/Complete-R...ACE-READY.html

[Tony Corley]

Looks like a good candidate to convert to a stocker from the pictures. Sell what you can't use off of it and install your stuff. Why haven't you bought it yet, lol?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Yes..I think you would need to change the whole nose...or as some would say "doghouse".
The tail lights, and the rear bumper..
The VIN is irrelevant.

I just checked out the differences real close. Would need an entire front cap. Hood, fenders, and nose--all different. It appears the '77 Grand Safari shares the front cap with the Bonneville and maybe the Parisienne.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

Looks like a good candidate to convert to a stocker from the pictures. Sell what you can't use off of it and install your stuff. Why haven't you bought it yet, lol?

Nope, the '72 400 has a 310hp factor. The 455 is only 315. It would be better. But those 455 heads had press-in studs and no end exhaust manifold bolt holes. And I don't have a set anyhow.

A '75 GP with a 455, factored at 300hp looks pretty good. And they show the 5c heads are legal on it. These heads are almost identical to the 6x heads that I have. And they have screw-in studs and all 6 exhaust bolt holes.

But, I just noticed that NHRA does not list any accepted replacement piston for the '75-'76 455's. They must be oddballs of some kind--maybe a bevel around the edge, or no valve reliefs. Anyhow, a barely under car at a divisional will most likely not be torn down to check the pistons. And I assume that if somebody requested it, NHRA would probably allow the same pistons they have listed for '70-'74 455's, since there would be no big performance advantage.

[Tony Corley]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Nope, the '72 400 has a 310hp factor. The 455 is only 315. It would be better. But those 455 heads had press-in studs and no end exhaust manifold bolt holes. And I don't have a set anyhow.

A '75 GP with a 455, factored at 300hp looks pretty good. And they show the 5c heads are legal on it. These heads are almost identical to the 6x heads that I have. And they have screw-in studs and all 6 exhaust bolt holes.

But, I just noticed that NHRA does not list any accepted replacement piston for the '75-'76 455's. They must be oddballs of some kind--maybe a bevel around the edge, or no valve reliefs. Anyhow, a barely under car at a divisional will most likely not be torn down to check the pistons. And I assume that if somebody requested it, NHRA would probably allow the same pistons they have listed for '70-'74 455's, since there would be no big performance advantage.

I meant buy it and sell any of the running gear you can't use. You could easily recoup $1000 or more in parts sales, and have a chassis basically ready to drop your stuff in. If you don't have the required heads, I'm sure someone else does. You are letting the minute details get in the way of racing, lol. Not too mention the '72 is way more cool than a '75. As mentioned earlier, years ago I had a 71 Monte Carlo SS 454, which obviously this is the Pontiac equivalent body style. Would hook in mud.

[goinbroke2]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Nope, the '72 400 has a 310hp factor. The 455 is only 315. It would be better. But those 455 heads had press-in studs and no end exhaust manifold bolt holes. And I don't have a set anyhow.

A '75 GP with a 455, factored at 300hp looks pretty good. And they show the 5c heads are legal on it. These heads are almost identical to the 6x heads that I have. And they have screw-in studs and all 6 exhaust bolt holes.

But, I just noticed that NHRA does not list any accepted replacement piston for the '75-'76 455's. They must be oddballs of some kind--maybe a bevel around the edge, or no valve reliefs. Anyhow, a barely under car at a divisional will most likely not be torn down to check the pistons. And I assume that if somebody requested it, NHRA would probably allow the same pistons they have listed for '70-'74 455's, since there would be no big performance advantage.

That head doesn't have two ears snapped off?? There are no outer manifold bolts??
Wtf were they thinking? Unless the flange on the header is 1/2" thick or something, how would that not leak?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

I meant buy it and sell any of the running gear you can't use. You could easily recoup $1000 or more in parts sales, and have a chassis basically ready to drop your stuff in. If you don't have the required heads, I'm sure someone else does. You are letting the minute details get in the way of racing, lol. Not too mention the '72 is way more cool than a '75. As mentioned earlier, years ago I had a 71 Monte Carlo SS 454, which obviously this is the Pontiac equivalent body style. Would hook in mud.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I like the GP body style. But I don't have several thousand layin around. I gotta use what I have. So, if I use a GP body, it'll have to be a cheap junker that I can strip down and start from scratch.

And although I like the GP body, it is not my favorite Pontiac. I have 2 bracket cars, so I'm not in any hurry. I'm gonna keep doing the research and figure out what I think would be a good combination to build, considering the parts I have, cost of buying a body, etc, etc.

Here's my order of preference in bodies:

(1) TJ

(2) Bird

(3) '69-'72 A-body

(4) Ventura 2

(5) Wagon

(6) '69-'77 GP

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

That head doesn't have two ears snapped off?? There are no outer manifold bolts??
Wtf were they thinking? Unless the flange on the header is 1/2" thick or something, how would that not leak?

Here's a couple of ways they do it.

[Mark Yacavone]

Make it a 71... 66 cast heads.
@325 , not a bad combo
Run it slow for 6 mos. and get some hp off.. Shouldn't be a problem for you.

Right ..Sell the drivetrain, and you'd have a few grand in it, and you'd have a nice looking car to race. ;-)

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

I was going to suggest a 74 GTO SS combo @250 hp..Build it like a Stocker, but with a flat tappet cam and an Edelbrock intake.
It ought to run under the SS/MA, 11.85 index

This got me to thinkin more about a Pontiac SS combo. The best one that comes to mind for my situation seems to be to use the '68 Bird, in a GT class.
What I like about the GT class is that it makes any Pontiac engine legal, from the 301 to the 455.

A '77 350 4-barrel has a 250hp factor in GT/auto

A '78 W72 220hp 400 has a factor of 289 in GT/auto.

A '75 455 has a factor of 300hp in GT/auto

I haven't checked out all the engine possibilities. But one I did check out one that looked real good. It's a '68 428.

The '68 iron head 428 has a 320hp GT/auto factor.

And NHRA has approved an Edlebrock alum head # 60587 for the '68 428.

The alum head 428 has a 330hp GT/auto factor.

You are allowed to shave these heads down to 65cc. That will provide a CR in the 13's. So, at 320-330hp, with 13:1 CR and a 4" stroke, I consider this one of the best lookin GT/auto engines. And, of course, you can now use an aftermarket block and build a shortblock that will support some serious power. I suspect some of the quickest Pontiac GT guys are running this engine.

Hey, it's out'a my range. For you guys with a few bucks to burn on a SS car, this looks like a real good GT engine.

I love the 455. I won't include the round port HO and SD engines, cause the heads are too rare and expensive. But the 455 I see as possibly the best choice for GT is the '70 with #64 heads. It'll have a high CR and a 335hp GT/auto factor.

That would put you in GT/EA at 3350 lbs, with a 10.65 index. Now at this point in life, I really don't wanna go that fast. But for you guys that do, this looks like an easy way to go SS racing without selling your soul. This engine should go 10.50's with a good hyd flat tappet cam, without going passed 6000rpm. If not, a mild roller will will get you there E-Z.

Another advantage of running this combo is that if you are trying to do it on a real tight budget, and don't quite get it under the index, you can run the 10.90 heads-up class, til you can get your ET down where you want it. Also, for you guys who live in a area like I do, that has very few class races, this will make a real good, low maintenance bracket car.

Now I realize that there are lots of guys on this site who don't like either the .90 classes or bracket racing. But, to me, any kind of racing is better than settin at home and not racing at all. I speak from experience.

Notice: I have absolutely no problem with anybody who likes only class racing. If I was younger and had unlimited funds, I'd probably go to just the big races, with my new motor home, enclosed trailer and a couple of Pontiacs that would run a sec under.