Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed

[randy wilson]

Look up the flow numbers, and get back to me. The light may then go off. The reason for the CC's of those heads are to make a stock valve angle flow with other stock valve angles. An 18 degree, and a 20 degree valve angle already has a leg up. I'm all for them designing an 18 degree straight across the board that flows the same. Problem is, they don't. I think some slam this idea because it is a threat to the norm. I never comment on classes that don't concern me, unless to give an opinion on such, but could care less if said class exists. I find it very odd that people running classes that this will have zero negative effect on their class, or this class, or any class even opine.

[69Cobra]

I also agree with Sean on the whole clutch manual trans rules. You have no real rules for the auto guys but you want the stick guys to add weight and no this and no that. Why don't you just say NO STICKS allowed and be done with it! Or make the auto guys run a junk yard stock auto with a 10.5" convertor with a 1800rpm max stall?

As far as no counterweights go there are ways around that as well as the no data logger. You know that doesn't mean you can't go testing with a data logger. Get the clutch dialed in then pull the logger out for the actual race.

In the end big money will prevail in the class and kill it! If what you want is a real budget minded entry level class look at the NMRA's Coyote Stock class. They buy their engines sealed from Ford with a factory tune. You can't pull any part of the engine apart or it breaks the seal and you have to buy another engine. Something like this will be the only way you will have a true entry level budget class that will live. Let the Ford guys use the already stock 5.0 crate motor for their cars and get GM and Mopar on board to supply a comparative deal with all sealed motors then turn them loose!

[randy wilson]

I'm personally not afraid of an auto against a clutch assisted single disc 5 speed. Maybe I would be later, but I don't see that they have an advantage. Also, take away their wt. break. As far as the computer, ya, that will happen with autos and sticks, but raceday is a different animal. With a single 10.5 or bigger single disc with no counter wts. with base only it's way less expensive, and not as advantageous. Again, people who have other options and ideas are making the class just as expensive as Comp. If you allow Comp rules, why even go down this road. The heads alone are only part of the cost saving this class would allow. you have to have other areas to shave expenses. And on stick cars, That's all I would enter, so I doubt I'm trying to put them behind the 8 ball. Not long ago everyone ran a single disc and clutched every gear. In SS\CS we ran as late as the year before KC closed, with that combo, and phase 2 heads, and ran 9.76 142 and change. The crate thing will never work in my opinion, because all heads up racers want some areas to explore.

[james schaechter]

Randy, I know you are a stick guy. If you are going to limit the clutch and trans this much, you should limit the auto guys to a ten inch b&m holeshot converter.

Why not keep it simple and cheap. Just say single disc no billet clutch. Disc size and counterweight allow people to tune and prevent breakage for no money. It is the billet stuff that can get pricey. As far as weight breaks, allow clutch less or no weight break. Let the auto guys do whatever they want then.

We ran modified in the 90's and we would have had a lot more fun and less cost running a smaller disc clutch with less base and more counterweight. I would not see going back as a cost savings even if you had to buy new stuff.

Originally Posted by randy wilson

I'm personally not afraid of an auto against a clutch assisted single disc 5 speed. Maybe I would be later, but I don't see that they have an advantage. Also, take away their wt. break. As far as the computer, ya, that will happen with autos and sticks, but raceday is a different animal. With a single 10.5 or bigger single disc with no counter wts. with base only it's way less expensive, and not as advantageous. Again, people who have other options and ideas are making the class just as expensive as Comp. If you allow Comp rules, why even go down this road. The heads alone are only part of the cost saving this class would allow. you have to have other areas to shave expenses. And on stick cars, That's all I would enter, so I doubt I'm trying to put them behind the 8 ball. Not long ago everyone ran a single disc and clutched every gear. In SS\CS we ran as late as the year before KC closed, with that combo, and phase 2 heads, and ran 9.76 142 and change. The crate thing will never work in my opinion, because all heads up racers want some areas to explore.

[randy wilson]

James, you make some very good points. I'm not denying what you say is true. That being said, the reason I was going with true clutch assisted is because of all the fans of drag racing that I have talked to about this, is the one thing they miss the most other then dry hops, are the guys having to clutch and shift. They say clutchless cars and autos are boring. Just trying to make it more of a drivers race. And one more thing I'm interested to know, and and not being smart, I truly want to know. Why do so many SS and Comp guys have 6 or 7 different $4,000 dollar clutch setups if they are all good? I'm saying you take that part of the equation out. I've tried virtually every single disc, clutch assisted setups they made, and never found much over .03 in all of them. That can't be said for the other setups. Found more in the fly wheel wt. then different clutch models.

[james schaechter]

I think the clutch assisted is fine, but even those transmissions won't look a lot different to the average fan. No one will be clutching them. They will cost less than the average clutch less though.

As far as clutches go, we have never purchased one new. We just have them rebuilt to our specs. Some guys have a lot of them for the same reason they have 3 engines at 40k each, because they can. There is et in the hot dog clutches if you are willing to test and you are willing to treat the clutch as a wearable item. You need to slip it to be fast. That means they will wear out. Because they will wear out, you better have two so you aren't down too long when it needs service.

Usually guys that like the heavy stuff only do because they dead hook it. They last forever, but they won't be as fast. Get a small light clutch and work it over! Some of the very small stuff out there has a small tuning window. One screw up in the bell housing or the burnout box and you are pulling it out.
Ask the auto guys that are fast how many convertire they test and how many transmissions they have. When we raced autos we were on our backs smelling transmission fluid all of the time! The automatic guys have been babied long enough when they have to race stick guys. In a true clutch less environment they might have a case for a few lbs, but not when they race against clutch assisted transmissions.
Not a bad idea, the spec class, but I do agree, you need something that will give racers confidence that the class will be around awhile. The coyote class deal would be cool if chevy and mopar stepped up also. None of this is easy to get started, or to police when it does get started. if you drummed up some support from the big three, it might hang in there awhile

[randy wilson]

Thank you James. A truly unbiased intelligent post.

[Geerhead55]

Originally Posted by randy wilson

Look up the flow numbers, and get back to me. The light may then go off. The reason for the CC's of those heads are to make a stock valve angle flow with other stock valve angles. An 18 degree, and a 20 degree valve angle already has a leg up. I'm all for them designing an 18 degree straight across the board that flows the same. Problem is, they don't. I think some slam this idea because it is a threat to the norm. I never comment on classes that don't concern me, unless to give an opinion on such, but could care less if said class exists. I find it very odd that people running classes that this will have zero negative effect on their class, or this class, or any class even opine.

I won't bother with flow #s at this time. I'm glad you never comment on nonconcerning classes, except to offer an opinion,, which is all that I'm doing, among the others on here. If you go back to post #1, you invite us all to "review and consider" this proposal that you and Dick have put together, which I'm sure you two put considerable time and effort into. For that alone, I find it very odd that YOU find it very odd that we wouldn't take time to "opine" on this topic if we weren't interested in it, regardless of what class we're in. After all,, its about getting more cars and people out to the track, and I'm for that.
Danny Durham

[randy wilson]

I'm for anyone's opinion on a positive note. Any negatives in my opinion should be to help fix any problems they might see coming up, which some have intelligently stated. What we weren't needing is people who have zero interest in something like this slamming it just because. That was my point. I hope you do have an interest in it. Truly. The Brodix stuff is ONLY listed because I could find no other manufacturer that even had a spec head for the big three. Also, I have about as much pull with NHRA as I do with the United States Congress. ZERO. So the chances of anything happening here are slim to none. And I do not mean to slam you. That ain't getting us nowhere. What I meant was I don't comment on let's say all the new cars, and classes in Stock. It doesn't concern me in the least. But I understand the concern of those involved.

[Dick Butler]

In regard to stick versus auto I bet the best runs data that Nitro Joe has could compare 283 cars or 327 cars stick and auto and give a fair indication of the gap.