Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere

Alan Roehrich · 06-04-2014, 12:27 AM

With the exhaust huffing smoke like that, you almost certainly have a ring seal problem. Doesn't look like valve stem seals at all. Oil on the plugs and the bottom of the carburetor is a bad sign as well, the guides would have to be so loose that the valves wouldn't seal on the seats. You need to run a compression test and a leak down test.

JRyan · 06-04-2014, 12:51 AM

Second ring in upside-down?

Jerry

Tim Lisson · 06-04-2014, 08:45 AM

Total Seal gapless top ring???

Paul Merolla · 06-04-2014, 09:13 AM

Tim, yes those are the ones. I filed to .028 as per Keith's instructions.

astikhossw · 06-04-2014, 09:49 AM

You made need to shim the top groove with that set up from Keith.

CFMCNC · 06-04-2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRyan

Second ring in upside-down?

Jerry

X2.Bill C.

RJ Sledge · 06-04-2014, 11:02 AM

Paul

I had a problem like that and it turned out to be the wrong size oil ring expander and rail set. They felt really loose when I put the motor together, and said to myself, if it seals up it will fly. Well, it was just as you described, pulled the motor down and replaced with a bigger expander and rail set and the car flew. If you are using Total Seal look at the label on the oil ring package and see what size is printed on it. They had sent a4.040 expander package while the top and second rings were for a finished bore size of 4.100. Believe I wound up with a 4.060 oil package set .

I always use a digital fish scale and pull a piston (with the oil ring package installed) through the cylinders to check for how much drag. I shoot for around 8 to 10 lbs. Its a little tricky, put try and keep it moving smoothly in the cylinder.

Good Luck

We learn a whole lot more from our mistakes than we do from our successes.

Hey, how long is your camper footprint? Look like it fits perfect without overhang.

RJ

Mike Pearson · 06-04-2014, 11:14 AM

I had some real bad problems with the gapless rings. After one run absolutely no compression. The engine would not start. Checked With leak down and 90% in all cylinders. Every ring was seized into the ring land both top and 2nd. I spoke to Total Seal and Patterson and no one could give me a good reason for the problem. I followed their instructions to the letter and used a premium break in oil. Definitely a ring problem.

Tim Lisson · 06-04-2014, 02:18 PM

Paul,

I'm sure there is smart engine builders out there that can make those gapless top rings work in a stocker set up, I tried and could not but I only do my own junk so take it for what its worth.... If it was me, I would pull the engine apart, scrub the cylinders with dawn dishsoap and brush them, remove the gapless top ring and throw them as far as you can, then find them and burry them so you don't try them again. Install some standard 5/64 rings and have fun.

They do seal awesome on compression, not sure what happens on the down stroke that makes them drink oil. I used two quarts in 10 dyno pulls and gave up. I heard of guys using a PCV set up to assist but with my tune port setup, it pulled oil out of the valve covers rapidly.

Good luck!

Tim

Paul Merolla · 06-04-2014, 11:38 PM

The plot thickens...
Today I installed new metal-clad Viton valve seals. Fired it up, and no smoke! As a side note, I originally had 6 qts of 30 wt. Valvoline along with a pint of Comp Cams break-in lube in the pan. Today I put in 5 qts of the Brad Penn since the cam was broken in.
Anyway, all was well until about 2 minutes in when the oil pressure gauge dropped to around 20 lbs. I immediately shut it off. Waited a few minutes and cranked it back up...had around 60 psi for a minute or so, then it dropped again. I'm thinking all these issues are related to filling the valve covers with oil. For some reason, there's either too much getting up there or not enough coming back down. Either way, it ain't good! I don't get it...same block and heads from last year. Different oil pump (Schumann low-volume), different head gaskets (FelPro MLS), pushrods, lifters, and roller rockers.
Is there a plug that could've gotten left out? Could the lifters be allowing too much oil up top?
By the way, I noticed the other day that the pressure on startup was 72 psi but after a couple minutes it started to "flutter" down to 55 or so. I have the 60-65 psi spring in the Schumann pump.

06-04-2014, 12:27 AM	#1
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,116 Likes: 1,573 Liked 1,832 Times in 415 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere With the exhaust huffing smoke like that, you almost certainly have a ring seal problem. Doesn't look like valve stem seals at all. Oil on the plugs and the bottom of the carburetor is a bad sign as well, the guides would have to be so loose that the valves wouldn't seal on the seats. You need to run a compression test and a leak down test. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

06-04-2014, 12:51 AM	#2
JRyan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aberdeen SD Posts: 645 Likes: 30 Liked 112 Times in 31 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Second ring in upside-down? Jerry

06-04-2014, 08:45 AM	#3
Tim Lisson Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Solon Springs, WI Posts: 166 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Total Seal gapless top ring???

06-04-2014, 09:13 AM	#4
Paul Merolla Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Papillion, NE Posts: 610 Likes: 242 Liked 293 Times in 65 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Tim, yes those are the ones. I filed to .028 as per Keith's instructions.

06-04-2014, 09:49 AM	#5
astikhossw Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: moreno valley Ca Posts: 266 Likes: 2 Liked 20 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere You made need to shim the top groove with that set up from Keith. __________________ 7015 E/SA Sooner Storm

06-04-2014, 11:02 AM	#7
RJ Sledge Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 783 Likes: 503 Liked 288 Times in 90 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Paul I had a problem like that and it turned out to be the wrong size oil ring expander and rail set. They felt really loose when I put the motor together, and said to myself, if it seals up it will fly. Well, it was just as you described, pulled the motor down and replaced with a bigger expander and rail set and the car flew. If you are using Total Seal look at the label on the oil ring package and see what size is printed on it. They had sent a4.040 expander package while the top and second rings were for a finished bore size of 4.100. Believe I wound up with a 4.060 oil package set . I always use a digital fish scale and pull a piston (with the oil ring package installed) through the cylinders to check for how much drag. I shoot for around 8 to 10 lbs. Its a little tricky, put try and keep it moving smoothly in the cylinder. Good Luck We learn a whole lot more from our mistakes than we do from our successes. Hey, how long is your camper footprint? Look like it fits perfect without overhang. RJ

06-04-2014, 11:14 AM	#8
Mike Pearson VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,451 Likes: 615 Liked 1,937 Times in 582 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere I had some real bad problems with the gapless rings. After one run absolutely no compression. The engine would not start. Checked With leak down and 90% in all cylinders. Every ring was seized into the ring land both top and 2nd. I spoke to Total Seal and Patterson and no one could give me a good reason for the problem. I followed their instructions to the letter and used a premium break in oil. Definitely a ring problem. __________________ Mike Pearson 2485 SS

06-04-2014, 02:18 PM	#9
Tim Lisson Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Solon Springs, WI Posts: 166 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere Paul, I'm sure there is smart engine builders out there that can make those gapless top rings work in a stocker set up, I tried and could not but I only do my own junk so take it for what its worth.... If it was me, I would pull the engine apart, scrub the cylinders with dawn dishsoap and brush them, remove the gapless top ring and throw them as far as you can, then find them and burry them so you don't try them again. Install some standard 5/64 rings and have fun. They do seal awesome on compression, not sure what happens on the down stroke that makes them drink oil. I used two quarts in 10 dyno pulls and gave up. I heard of guys using a PCV set up to assist but with my tune port setup, it pulled oil out of the valve covers rapidly. Good luck! Tim

06-04-2014, 11:38 PM	#10
Paul Merolla Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Papillion, NE Posts: 610 Likes: 242 Liked 293 Times in 65 Posts	Re: Fresh rebuild, oil everywhere The plot thickens... Today I installed new metal-clad Viton valve seals. Fired it up, and no smoke! As a side note, I originally had 6 qts of 30 wt. Valvoline along with a pint of Comp Cams break-in lube in the pan. Today I put in 5 qts of the Brad Penn since the cam was broken in. Anyway, all was well until about 2 minutes in when the oil pressure gauge dropped to around 20 lbs. I immediately shut it off. Waited a few minutes and cranked it back up...had around 60 psi for a minute or so, then it dropped again. I'm thinking all these issues are related to filling the valve covers with oil. For some reason, there's either too much getting up there or not enough coming back down. Either way, it ain't good! I don't get it...same block and heads from last year. Different oil pump (Schumann low-volume), different head gaskets (FelPro MLS), pushrods, lifters, and roller rockers. Is there a plug that could've gotten left out? Could the lifters be allowing too much oil up top? By the way, I noticed the other day that the pressure on startup was 72 psi but after a couple minutes it started to "flutter" down to 55 or so. I have the 60-65 psi spring in the Schumann pump. Last edited by Paul Merolla; 06-04-2014 at 11:56 PM.