Question for Jeff Foster and Dave Kommel

[Bill Koski]

This could be cleared up if there was a demonstration of how it can happen? Surely intentionally aiming a camera to try and make it happen would result in it happening almost every time?

[Toby Lang]

First off, I just want to say that flash pictures should NEVER be taken until both cars have left the starting line. What do you think is more important, having a fair race without the possibility of a rerun or getting both cars in the photo? If we took a poll I don't think it would even be close. If you have to have both cars in the photo, go stand on a ladder at the 330' marker or at half track, whatever it takes, just don't take any flash pictures until both cars have left the starting line.

Have you ever tried concentrating on the tree with a camera flash going off in your face? I have. Back when I used to run my bracket car I was racing in Boise at the Nightfire Nationals. I was leaving off the top bulb. When the top bulb was about come on a flash went off in my face. When I could see again the second bulb was on. Not fun. I assume nobody would do that nowadays, but I wouldn't even want a flash going off behind me either. Somebody told me the photographer in the Dan Mason incident was about 10' behind the line.

I did a little research on cameras and they use infrared to trigger external flashes for better lighting. Dave, does your camera have the capability to use external flashes? If so, it uses infrared to control them.

I don't buy that it's the flash from the camera that's causing the red lights. If the sun reflecting off of a finely polished chrome plated front wheel doesn't trigger a red light, then how is the flash from a camera doing it? I bet it's the infrared from the camera that's causing it. Visible light is a different wavelength than infrared and it shouldn't matter how powerful the flash is.

And how many times does it happen when nobody notices it? Let's say a driver is about to cut a .150 light, but the photographer takes a picture at just the the right time and he gets a .025 light? Or a close red light?

I'm with Bill. I'd like to see a demonstration of this happening with just the flash part of a camera. If this can happen with just a flash from a camera, something is wrong. I believe it's caused by the infrared signal sent out by these cameras to control external flashes.

And once again, flash pictures should NEVER be taken until both cars have left the starting line. I hope you will tell other photographers this because there should NEVER be a rerun because of a photographer.

[Ed Wright]

[QUOTE] And once again, flash pictures should NEVER be taken until both cars have left the starting line. I hope you will tell other photographers this because there should NEVER be a rerun because of a photographer. [QUOTE]

I fully agree!!!! What is more important?

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

First off, I just want to say that flash pictures should NEVER be taken until both cars have left the starting line. What do you think is more important, having a fair race without the possibility of a rerun or getting both cars in the photo? If we took a poll I don't think it would even be close. If you have to have both cars in the photo, go stand on a ladder at the 330' marker or at half track, whatever it takes, just don't take any flash pictures until both cars have left the starting line.

Have you ever tried concentrating on the tree with a camera flash going off in your face? I have. Back when I used to run my bracket car I was racing in Boise at the Nightfire Nationals. I was leaving off the top bulb. When the top bulb was about come on a flash went off in my face. When I could see again the second bulb was on. Not fun. I assume nobody would do that nowadays, but I wouldn't even want a flash going off behind me either. Somebody told me the photographer in the Dan Mason incident was about 10' behind the line.

I did a little research on cameras and they use infrared to trigger external flashes for better lighting. Dave, does your camera have the capability to use external flashes? If so, it uses infrared to control them.

I don't buy that it's the flash from the camera that's causing the red lights. If the sun reflecting off of a finely polished chrome plated front wheel doesn't trigger a red light, then how is the flash from a camera doing it? I bet it's the infrared from the camera that's causing it. Visible light is a different wavelength than infrared and it shouldn't matter how powerful the flash is.

And how many times does it happen when nobody notices it? Let's say a driver is about to cut a .150 light, but the photographer takes a picture at just the the right time and he gets a .025 light? Or a close red light?

I'm with Bill. I'd like to see a demonstration of this happening with just the flash part of a camera. If this can happen with just a flash from a camera, something is wrong. I believe it's caused by the infrared signal sent out by these cameras to control external flashes.

And once again, flash pictures should NEVER be taken until both cars have left the starting line. I hope you will tell other photographers this because there should NEVER be a rerun because of a photographer.

Toby, the flash intensity can be adjusted in much of the professional equipment used at the races.
Many electronic flash systems have a capacitor that can generate several hundred volts and the energy is measured by Watts-Second.
Again, if by coincidence the flash is on the line-of-sight, it can trigger the photocell or infrared.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Toby, the flash intensity can be adjusted in much of the professional equipment used at the races.
Many electronic flash systems have a capacitor that can generate several hundred volts and the energy is measured by Watts-Second.
Again, if by coincidence the flash is on the line-of-sight, it can trigger the photocell or infrared.

Do you have a link or a demonstration to back this up? An infrared sensor should only respond to infrared light. It shouldn't matter how many volts or watt-seconds the light is. The wavelength of visible light is different than IR light.

I agree that a camera flash could trigger a photocell, but not an IR sensor.

[69stocker]

The camera flash thing is bs. The car doesn't even light the bulbs when his rear ties rolled through. If the camera was a problem it wouldn't make both of the lights go out they would blink, but what would I know I'm just using common sense. The main problem is the compulink system works off of a DOS system my cell phone has more technology than a compulink computer. Come one NHRA I think it's time to upgrade your POS timing system. I was involved in two reruns last year one at a big money bracket race and one at the Dallas national both were using compulink. NHRA needs to stop making up excuses and fix that outdated equipment.


Will Carrell

[Bernie Cunningham]

I've been bitten by the camera flash thing a few times, once at Bakersfield points race in the final and I was chasing a slower car, the perp. was on my opponents side of the track and before the 60' clocks. That flash shot straight thru the tree into my face. Me and him had a few words afterwards !! Mike R was involved in the discussions as well.
NO RE-RUN !!!!!!!!!!!!

The other significant time was in the final at Atlanta Nat., I was driving pretty good but I got a red against me in the semi's and my tree was off, at that point ya gotta blow it off but the same thing happened in the final with a more slower car and I sucked again, even mentioned it in the winners story in ND. Wasn't until I got the ND that I noticed the shot of Scott H's Q car leaving with a shot from behind that i understood the problem that time. There was more than one flash that time !!

Sorry Dave, but Toby is right, there should not be any flash photography until both cars leave. Even with the slightest chance of the flash being seen by any driver, where does it say that a photographer should be able to control the outcome of a race !! NUFF SAID !!!

[John DiBartolomeo]

I think before anyone flies off the handle as to the root cause of the problem, I'd like to see it duplicated as Bill Koski suggests. If it was caused by a photographer's flash (No it wasn't me as I was shooting top end at the time), I had thought we fixed the problem of "shine-back" we used to have with the old spotlight and photocells where flash/sunlight/moonlight/whatever would cause a red light even though the car hadn't moved. Again, I thought going to the infrareds stopped that problem. My question is if it's back, should we be going back to black front wheels or shoe polishing them like we used to do?

Now if the problem is an infrared signal coming from the camera to light a flash, I didn't notice anyone on the starting line when I was there using remote triggering of flashes. That doesn't mean the camera wasn't still emitting an infrared signal anyway, but that's beyond my knowledge of cameras.

I've also had "red-light problem" happen to me and I never liked nor understood the answers given as to the cause. Other than wanting to see it duplicated, the only question I have is: Do we have to go back to black wheels?

When I cover the high dollar bracket races, I'm usually told not to use flashes near the starting line at night. But I too have been in the finals of a race when I staged and noticed what seemed like dozens of flashes going off in the corner of my eye. While I might not like it, it's just something you have to put out of your mind and concentrate. And of course, that also precludes us from having any final round photos.

For now though, as Bill said, I'd like to see it duplicated.