superstock hemi heads - Page 2

SSDA Hemi · 11-22-2012, 07:25 AM

Thats exactly the response I would expect from a head porter, the only ones to gain anything in this. I like to figure where the chips will fall before someone knocks the pile over

As Jeff Teuton has stated, NHRA has not enforced this rule for too long. You can't tell everyone running RB, CW, MCH or VED heads that they are illegal now. You need new heads. This is why I tried to difuse this fire before it escalated into this. If your VC threads are cut into on the intake side, your sh!ts illegal…

I know someone with 2 AH cars, selling 4 AH engines. Suddenly all your sh!ts illegal! And it goes past AH. I know of a fast SS/DA car out in washington state. Bam- your sh!ts illegal. Spend $20k+ per engine to add .020 to .125" to the intake face. And as far as the valvetrain stabilizer, CW already had it figured what he needs to do to move those internal. Just send $

The other problem is where would all the new castings come from for all the heads to be replaced. Thats alot of heads. I have 3 sets of castings new in boxes. Maybe I am wrong with my $20k cyl head legalizing. What r new castings worth now? $$$.

And as stated earlier, my SS/DA stuff is legal to the rules. I have 4 sets VED (the most conservative of the bunch) and one set of RB Oval in my shop, so I kind of have a stake in this and something to lose/gain also. The rule needs to be addressed and we all move on I agree. Telling everyone suddenly the parts you have been running for the last five to ten years is now illegal is not the answer. Can you say Class Killer…

On this Thanksgiving Day I am very thankful for SS/AH and dont want to see it die a slow agonizing death. I just hope NHRA agrees

charlie westcott · 11-22-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSDA Hemi

Thats exactly the response I would expect from a head porter, the only ones to gain anything in this. I like to figure where the chips will fall before someone knocks the pile over

As Jeff Teuton has stated, NHRA has not enforced this rule for too long. You can't tell everyone running RB, CW, MCH or VED heads that they are illegal now. You need new heads. This is why I tried to difuse this fire before it escalated into this. If your VC threads are cut into on the intake side, your sh!ts illegal…

And as stated earlier, my SS/DA stuff is legal to the rules. I have 4 sets VED (the most conservative of the bunch) and one set of RB Oval in my shop, so I kind of have a stake in this and something to lose/gain also. The rule needs to be addressed and we all move on I agree. Telling everyone suddenly the parts you have been running for the last five to ten years is now illegal is not the answer. Can you say Class Killer…

On this Thanksgiving Day I am very thankful for SS/AH and dont want to see it die a slow agonizing death. I just hope NHRA agrees

RB, CW, MCH or VED heads are not all illegal, only one brand as far as I know. Not all heads in the class are illegal. The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991. This isnt a big deal to anyone other than the ones that do business with someone who cant read the rules. As I told you on the phone when you called, either 6 or so people have to buy new heads, or the whole class will have to buy new one to compete with the cheaters. If they didnt enforce this rule, I would have showed you how to get creative when I milled the head till I got to the valve guide, and put a 2 inch spacer on it. I mean if you can get into the bolt, then where do you stop?

I wish everyone luck next weekend at gainsville. Now that the record is a minimum, someone new will be in teardown as we will not be there.
That brings up another point I made, my dad an I are the only cars that have been torn down at a hemi shootout for the last 3 years so this stuff has been under a towel for who knows how long.

happy Thanksgiving from the MILITIA
cw

SSDA Hemi · 11-22-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie westcott

The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991.
cw

And as I told everyone except for Dave Visner, I Hope I am reading this wrong, LOL!

From NHRA rulebook:

Intake side of head may not be cut into ANY PART of valve cover bolt holes. Valve cover bolt holes must remain unaltered and in their original location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie westcott

Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991

And this kind of proves my point how long this has gone on.

I can't tell you whose heads are legal or aren't and that really doesn't affect me. That is NHRA's job. What I can tell you is the current generation of heads are cut into the vc bolt hole. I didn't want to stir the pot here. All I want is to be told what is and isn't legal so I can move forward with my 2013 plans. I like to have my stuff ready to race by Jan 1. That will not happen this year.

Dyno · 11-22-2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by charlie westcott
The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991.
cw

Are they talking about the gasket surface at the valve cover, or the gasket surface on the intake gasket?

SSDA Hemi · 11-22-2012, 05:02 PM

Mark, rule says intake side may not be cut into any part of the vc bolt hole. Not valve cover surface. If this is what they meant this is the way it needs to be written.

SSDA Hemi · 11-22-2012, 06:33 PM

Part of the problem is the intake face on a Hemi is not at a 90 degree angle to the valve cover surface so the threads of the valve cover bolt breaks through at the bottom of the threads before you are close at the valve cover .

A simple wording of "valve cover bolt hole at the valve cover rail" would in fact keep a majority of the heads legal, BUT- why should some heads be exempt and some be outlawed?

All the heads have gone through tech. Legal yesterday but not today. The heads that are milled into the bolt at the rail need a spacer greater than what is milled to be legal and port volumes adjusted to correct cc's. No new Heads
can be built this way. Old heads grandfathered in.

Like Eric Jones stated " a few thousandths one way or the other isn't going to kill the head"

Hemi Moose · 11-23-2012, 07:10 PM

Are there any plans for the parties involved to sit down with NHRA and have a pow-wow, because this can't go on it will only hurt the class the drivers & owners involved and especially the fans!!!

SPS · 11-24-2012, 09:12 AM

I really don't know why anybody would argue this with Charlie. He likely knows and has seen more of whats going on than anybody.

Besides, as he said, this rule has been in the book and accepted for ever. A lot older than 1991.

It also affects all other engines (Chevys for sure) too.

As Charlie said, "where do you stop milling??" at the valve guide??

The cylinder head guys (the majority) have honoured this rule to date, so it is what it is.

FJ

SSDA Hemi · 11-24-2012, 05:02 PM

FJ, that is why the first call I made regarding this subject was to confirm that NHRA told John Gulius this was not allowed on a sbc…

Intake side of head may not be cut into ANY PART of valve cover bolt holes

Maybe "Any" means valve cover rail…(sarcasm)

I hope I'm wrong as I'll have 5 sets of heads I can use on my SS/DA and AH car and not have to spend money as I planned to do having a new set done to legal specs with the valve cover bolt un-exposed. The 5 sets are much, much better than the legal set on the SS/DA car right now.

But this fight is really between the two major Hemi Builders. I'm just in search of the truth as I like to push the rules right to the limit but not over...

SPS · 11-25-2012, 10:58 AM

Man, you can over-complicate this.

Best you look up the dimensions of a bolt, any bolt. It is the major diameter of the bolt (or threaded hole) that you can't cut into.

Yes, this started with the hemi heads, but it affects everybody. The Chevy heads are right there as far as being cut.....have been for years.

Simple rule .

FJ

11-22-2012, 07:25 AM	#11
SSDA Hemi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 503 Likes: 130 Liked 451 Times in 77 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Thats exactly the response I would expect from a head porter, the only ones to gain anything in this. I like to figure where the chips will fall before someone knocks the pile over As Jeff Teuton has stated, NHRA has not enforced this rule for too long. You can't tell everyone running RB, CW, MCH or VED heads that they are illegal now. You need new heads. This is why I tried to difuse this fire before it escalated into this. If your VC threads are cut into on the intake side, your sh!ts illegal… I know someone with 2 AH cars, selling 4 AH engines. Suddenly all your sh!ts illegal! And it goes past AH. I know of a fast SS/DA car out in washington state. Bam- your sh!ts illegal. Spend $20k+ per engine to add .020 to .125" to the intake face. And as far as the valvetrain stabilizer, CW already had it figured what he needs to do to move those internal. Just send $ The other problem is where would all the new castings come from for all the heads to be replaced. Thats alot of heads. I have 3 sets of castings new in boxes. Maybe I am wrong with my $20k cyl head legalizing. What r new castings worth now? $$$. And as stated earlier, my SS/DA stuff is legal to the rules. I have 4 sets VED (the most conservative of the bunch) and one set of RB Oval in my shop, so I kind of have a stake in this and something to lose/gain also. The rule needs to be addressed and we all move on I agree. Telling everyone suddenly the parts you have been running for the last five to ten years is now illegal is not the answer. Can you say Class Killer… On this Thanksgiving Day I am very thankful for SS/AH and dont want to see it die a slow agonizing death. I just hope NHRA agrees

11-22-2012, 03:29 PM	#14
Dyno Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 915 Likes: 1,132 Liked 682 Times in 203 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Originally Posted by charlie westcott The heads cant be milled into the V/C bolt at the gasket surface, thats the line that you cant cross. Its been that way since before I started racing in 1991. cw Are they talking about the gasket surface at the valve cover, or the gasket surface on the intake gasket?

11-22-2012, 05:02 PM	#15
SSDA Hemi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 503 Likes: 130 Liked 451 Times in 77 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Mark, rule says intake side may not be cut into any part of the vc bolt hole. Not valve cover surface. If this is what they meant this is the way it needs to be written.

11-22-2012, 06:33 PM	#16
SSDA Hemi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 503 Likes: 130 Liked 451 Times in 77 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Part of the problem is the intake face on a Hemi is not at a 90 degree angle to the valve cover surface so the threads of the valve cover bolt breaks through at the bottom of the threads before you are close at the valve cover . A simple wording of "valve cover bolt hole at the valve cover rail" would in fact keep a majority of the heads legal, BUT- why should some heads be exempt and some be outlawed? All the heads have gone through tech. Legal yesterday but not today. The heads that are milled into the bolt at the rail need a spacer greater than what is milled to be legal and port volumes adjusted to correct cc's. No new Heads can be built this way. Old heads grandfathered in. Like Eric Jones stated " a few thousandths one way or the other isn't going to kill the head"

11-23-2012, 07:10 PM	#17
Hemi Moose VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,824 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Are there any plans for the parties involved to sit down with NHRA and have a pow-wow, because this can't go on it will only hurt the class the drivers & owners involved and especially the fans!!!

11-24-2012, 09:12 AM	#18
SPS Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Cayuga, Canada Posts: 298 Likes: 37 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads I really don't know why anybody would argue this with Charlie. He likely knows and has seen more of whats going on than anybody. Besides, as he said, this rule has been in the book and accepted for ever. A lot older than 1991. It also affects all other engines (Chevys for sure) too. As Charlie said, "where do you stop milling??" at the valve guide?? The cylinder head guys (the majority) have honoured this rule to date, so it is what it is. FJ

11-24-2012, 05:02 PM	#19
SSDA Hemi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 503 Likes: 130 Liked 451 Times in 77 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads FJ, that is why the first call I made regarding this subject was to confirm that NHRA told John Gulius this was not allowed on a sbc… Intake side of head may not be cut into ANY PART of valve cover bolt holes Maybe "Any" means valve cover rail…(sarcasm) I hope I'm wrong as I'll have 5 sets of heads I can use on my SS/DA and AH car and not have to spend money as I planned to do having a new set done to legal specs with the valve cover bolt un-exposed. The 5 sets are much, much better than the legal set on the SS/DA car right now. But this fight is really between the two major Hemi Builders. I'm just in search of the truth as I like to push the rules right to the limit but not over... Last edited by SSDA Hemi; 11-25-2012 at 02:59 PM.

11-25-2012, 10:58 AM	#20
SPS Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Cayuga, Canada Posts: 298 Likes: 37 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: superstock hemi heads Man, you can over-complicate this. Best you look up the dimensions of a bolt, any bolt. It is the major diameter of the bolt (or threaded hole) that you can't cut into. Yes, this started with the hemi heads, but it affects everybody. The Chevy heads are right there as far as being cut.....have been for years. Simple rule . FJ