A short continuation of my "VENT" before Indy !!

[Jeff Lee]

I guess I'm not getting a sense here on this forum of what is right or wrong with NHRA sanctioned "Combo" races"; i.e., having individual competitors race one another for the Stick or auto class win in the absence of fellow competitors.

I understand why NHRA and MAYBE some contingency sponsors want a Combo race. It appears they are not happy with awarding trophies and or cash to those entrants not facing competition in their respective class.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, NHRA has the program presently structured so there are only (4) events per year with Class runoffs.

Initially, this seems like a good solution; if NHRA & the contingency sponsors actually thought there was a problem out there. I'm of the impression the racers had an opposite opinion.

The problem that arises is one builds a car to be competitive in a particular class. And as racers have always said, "not my fault my fellow competitors didn't make it to the show". Or maybe there's not another competitor in the country. The bottom line is, a racer builds a car that is allowable per the rulebook. Whether anybody else follows suit is not his problem.
But let's say you build the baddest SS car in the country given what you have to work with. And it's a '60's muscle car. It runs 1.15 under, maybe 11.00's. It's been torn down so many times that the block needs help-coils in every hole. He's at the top of the class and nobody can touch him.
And in a combo race it would seem he should be racing cars that are at least similar. But in a combo race, he get's paired against something with a turbo or super charger, or a RWD conversion car, but basically, something that is not even remotely resembling what the racer built his car to compete in and against those in his respective class. It's not a bracket race so shoe polish isn't an issue. It's heads up. The issue is one guy built a car to be competitive in his class and is forced to race cars that are not even remotely in his class. Other than to say they were all built with the intention to go down a 1/4 mile as quickly as possible.

So given that disparity, my view is that if there is less chance of singletons, then there is a better chance of not having to deal with the disparity of a Combo race. For that I see combining sticks and autos as a proposal that makes sense. That would cut the classes roughly in half and far less single runs for Class. As I stated elsewhere, use the auto index, the stick index or split it down the middle. HP adjustments will still fall into the AHFS and as I see it, some may hit the AHFS sooner than later if faced with more competition.

Just an idea and if somebody has a viable alternative or doesn't like the idea of combining sticks and auto's, I'd like to hear them. And I know at least one manufacturer of new age drag cars is in agreement with me. They want the sticks and autos combined and don't agree with combo races. I'm sensing some of the other manufacturers have the same opinion. I recently calculated and posted here that approximately 12%-14% of NHRA S/SS racers compete with a stick.

[Tony Janes]

I will make it simple Jeff. Class has nothing to do with the eliminator in 2012 and on.

[Lew Silverman]

So are we saying that there is NO performance advantage to racing a stick over an automatic (or vice versa)? And after we "combine" all of the like-factored vehicles into one class, what do we do when a single vehicle does enter an event where Class Eliminations are being contested?

If the reason that the "Combo" programs were started was as Jeff said, to economize on the expenditures for trophies and contingencies payments, then how about a frame-able certificate for all of the regular class winners. Keep giving the "special classes" and Stock Eliminator winners the "Wally". And isn't a product purchase and usage required to collect a contingency payment from the Manufacturer? What does it matter how many cars are in a certain class if you're using and advertising a Manufacturer's product?

Why are we (they) complicating this?

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Lew Silverman

So are we saying that there is NO performance advantage to racing a stick over an automatic (or vice versa)? And after we "combine" all of the like-factored vehicles into one class, what do we do when a single vehicle does enter an event where Class Eliminations are being contested?

If the reason that the "Combo" programs were started was as Jeff said, to economize on the expenditures for trophies and contingencies payments, then how about a frame-able certificate for all of the regular class winners. Keep giving the "special classes" and Stock Eliminator winners the "Wally". And isn't a product purchase and usage required to collect a contingency payment from the Manufacturer? What does it matter how many cars are in a certain class if you're using and advertising a Manufacturer's product?

Why are we (they) complicating this?

To answer your question about the advantage It depends greatly on each combination. In my case 4 cyl FWD. If I put in a manual trans I would pick up from .3 to .5 (thats tenths not hundreths) With a manual I can get a 4.12 final drive ratio. With the automatic the best (other than custom one of gears) . I can use is 3.72.
NHRA is blaming the combo classes on the manufacturers. But in real life it's about saving trophies. They fail to realize a lot of cars (at over $300 a car) don't show because of their desision.

[Jeff Lee]

If you go through the Nitro Joe stats, you will see a majority of classes that differentiate between the auto and stick trans by class, the auto trans racers are the quickest of the two.

[Andrew Hill]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

If you go through the Nitro Joe stats, you will see a majority of classes that differentiate between the auto and stick trans by class, the auto trans racers are the quickest of the two.

One of the main reasons for that is a lot more people race automatics, plus they are more likely to have heads up, so they need to spend the money to go faster.

I have no problem combining automatics with sticks, but if they do, they need to get a few of the horsepower factors in line (i.e. LS1).

[Ed Carpenter]

This thread is just another reminder that you will never get enough people to agree on something to get it done. Since I've been on CL I've seen tons of ideas about all kinds of things. Its always the same some for it most against it and the rest just don't care. I just don't see anything ever getting done. Debating ideas is always good but there never is a consensus on anything proposed. My .02