If you like guns

Jim Wahl · 07-18-2012, 08:26 PM

Eddie, no offence but the way you think is exactly what they are hoping we all will think like. However those of us who know the government can not be trusted to do anything openly and honestly are the ones who they fear the most. Just like the quote you posted from the Japanese emperor. People who do not take them at their word and know there are always ulterior motives. The way Art described it is almost exactly the way it happened in Australia. Don't believe me? Ask an Australian. I have a very good Australian racer friend who comes the the US and stays with me every other year. The first thing he wants to do is go to the shooting range and shoot some of my guns. He had a 12G shotgun once, they took it from him. A neighbor turned him in for having a Ruger .22 pistol, they came to his house and searched and found it and he was in jail for two weeks, almost lost his job and house because of it. Cost him $10,000 in fines and court costs. He lives in South Australia. They never though it could happen there either. Nope, I don't trust them, none of them. I will be one of those guys hiding behind a blade of grass! They will never take my gun while I am still alive, my forefathers said I have the right to bare arms and I believe them! Jim

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Eddies66 · 07-19-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

Eddie, no offence but the way you think is exactly what they are hoping we all will think like. However those of us who know the government can not be trusted to do anything openly and honestly are the ones who they fear the most. Just like the quote you posted from the Japanese emperor. People who do not take them at their word and know there are always ulterior motives. The way Art described it is almost exactly the way it happened in Australia. Don't believe me? Ask an Australian. I have a very good Australian racer friend who comes the the US and stays with me every other year. The first thing he wants to do is go to the shooting range and shoot some of my guns. He had a 12G shotgun once, they took it from him. A neighbor turned him in for having a Ruger .22 pistol, they came to his house and searched and found it and he was in jail for two weeks, almost lost his job and house because of it. Cost him $10,000 in fines and court costs. He lives in South Australia. They never though it could happen there either. Nope, I don't trust them, none of them. I will be one of those guys hiding behind a blade of grass! They will never take my gun while I am still alive, my forefathers said I have the right to bare arms and I believe them! Jim

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Jim/Art, I am attempting to explain the treaty, the Constitution and the Court case that sets the ground rules for procedure as I see it. I understand your mistrust of the government clowns we have put in office with "special trust and confidence". These are just two different issues. With regards to the right to bears arms...the government or any individual does not have the right to secure any of my possessions, quarter troops or illegally search my place of residence. I will defend these inalienable rights with my life.

Do I have weapons? There is only two ways to know that: as a guest with an interest or as an intruder. Both will depart with the same knowledge.

art leong · 07-19-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddies66

Jim/Art, I am attempting to explain the treaty, the Constitution and the Court case that sets the ground rules for procedure as I see it. I understand your mistrust of the government clowns we have put in office with "special trust and confidence". These are just two different issues. With regards to the right to bears arms...the government or any individual does not have the right to secure any of my possessions, quarter troops or illegally search my place of residence. I will defend these inalienable rights with my life.

Do I have weapons? There is only two ways to know that: as a guest with an interest or as an intruder. Both will depart with the same knowledge.

What I am getting at is the treaty opens the door to complete gun registration for everyone.
You obviously have never dealt with a game warden. Look up their search and seizure laws. Warrantless search and seizure.

Eddies66 · 07-19-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by art leong

You obviously have never dealt with a game warden. Look up their search and seizure laws. Warrantless search and seizure.

No, I don't deal with Game Wardens because I have a safe record with them and give them no reason to question my ability to hunt safely.

Eddies66 · 07-19-2012, 01:06 PM

Here is a statement from the US Fish and Wildlife service regarding warrantless searches:

The exclusionary rule says that evidence Federal or State officers obtain by unreasonable (illegal) searches and seizures cannot be introduced in a criminal proceeding against the defendant.

A. Extent of Exclusions. Generally, all improperly obtained evidence is excluded. This includes all evidence obtained by exploiting improperly obtained evidence (i.e., “fruit of the poisonous tree”). The fruit is any information, object, or testimony that officers uncover or obtain, directly or indirectly, through the illegally seized evidence—items and information that officers would not have obtained if not for the initial illegally obtained evidence.

B. Standing. Because the exclusionary rule is an attempt to effectuate the guarantees of the Fourth Amendment, only defendants whose Fourth Amendment rights have been violated are permitted to benefit from the rule’s protections. Courts have found that, “A person who is aggrieved by an illegal search and seizure only through the introduction of damaging evidence secured by a search of a third person’s premises or property has not had any of his Fourth Amendment rights infringed.” In order to claim the protection of the Fourth Amendment, “a defendant must demonstrate that he personally has an expectation of privacy in the place searched and that his expectation is reasonable . . .”

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect: (1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or catching wildlife resources; (2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a wildlife resource; (3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession; and (4) the contents of any container or receptacle that is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource. (c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain view of the game warden or other peace officer. (d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a search otherwise authorized by this section: (1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or (2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is: (A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic; (B) open to the public; and (C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or other area not intended for vehicular traffic.

treessavoy · 07-19-2012, 01:39 PM

Art,

First, let me go back to the link Jim Wahl posted. Within the first 5 minutes of the link the commentator says that the UN will be kicking down my door, taking my weapons and beating me; "....it's been done before...." he says.

Second, anyone that comes through my door without an invitation or without a warrant is dead and there have been a number of cases throughout the country where police were shot because the didn't identify themselves and home owner was not prosecuted, one in this county a year before I moved here.

Third, If what you say is true how would a game warden or cop know I have guns? Are they going house to house just looking? As far as the state is concerned I only have two guns and neither are hunting guns, so why would a game warden come to my house?

Fourth, There are not enough game wardens in this state to even cover one city of over 100,000 people.

Even if it becomes a law they will never get guns except from those that are too stupid to deny they have one or too dumb to hide them.

Police and the Federal Govt have been trying to get guns from criminals since Bonnie and Clyde and you can see how well that worked!

JimR

art leong · 07-19-2012, 08:17 PM

Jim you are still missing the point and looking backwards instead of forwards.
In the 1960's. In the southern district of New York, encompassing all of NYC and quite a few other counties. There were 2 game wardens. And hardly any place to hunt and only one fishing law in salt water. When I moved out of NYC in 2006 there were over 300 game wardens for the same area. And a bookful of laws pertaining to saltwater fishing.
As they create laws they need more people to enforce them. They then have more power.
The more power they have the more laws they pass.
Why is the NRA so adamant about gun control? Do we really need the right to own an AK 47 assault rifle? The only thing you hunt with that would have 2 legs and walk upright.
BUT. Once they get their foot in the door you will be using muzzle loaders. (till they ban them)
Everyone can say they are goiing to hide them. Sounds good. But what do you do if a disaster happens? And someone else finds them? You have a fire, the fireman finds a gun, turns you in. Some one breaks into your house. You shoot them (rightfully so) The cops come to your house, they arrest you. And you are facing mandatory five years.
This was similar to what the rules were when I lived in NYC. I could have bought a gun easily. To me it was not worth the risk.

07-18-2012, 08:26 PM	#1
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,844 Likes: 667 Liked 683 Times in 129 Posts	Re: If you like guns Eddie, no offence but the way you think is exactly what they are hoping we all will think like. However those of us who know the government can not be trusted to do anything openly and honestly are the ones who they fear the most. Just like the quote you posted from the Japanese emperor. People who do not take them at their word and know there are always ulterior motives. The way Art described it is almost exactly the way it happened in Australia. Don't believe me? Ask an Australian. I have a very good Australian racer friend who comes the the US and stays with me every other year. The first thing he wants to do is go to the shooting range and shoot some of my guns. He had a 12G shotgun once, they took it from him. A neighbor turned him in for having a Ruger .22 pistol, they came to his house and searched and found it and he was in jail for two weeks, almost lost his job and house because of it. Cost him $10,000 in fines and court costs. He lives in South Australia. They never though it could happen there either. Nope, I don't trust them, none of them. I will be one of those guys hiding behind a blade of grass! They will never take my gun while I am still alive, my forefathers said I have the right to bare arms and I believe them! Jim . __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 NHRA D2 National Open Stock Champion 1982 NHRA D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association. Last edited by Jim Wahl; 07-18-2012 at 08:58 PM.

07-19-2012, 01:06 PM	#5
Eddies66 VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Rancho Mirage, CA Posts: 1,308 Likes: 300 Liked 881 Times in 452 Posts	Re: If you like guns Here is a statement from the US Fish and Wildlife service regarding warrantless searches: The exclusionary rule says that evidence Federal or State officers obtain by unreasonable (illegal) searches and seizures cannot be introduced in a criminal proceeding against the defendant. A. Extent of Exclusions. Generally, all improperly obtained evidence is excluded. This includes all evidence obtained by exploiting improperly obtained evidence (i.e., “fruit of the poisonous tree”). The fruit is any information, object, or testimony that officers uncover or obtain, directly or indirectly, through the illegally seized evidence—items and information that officers would not have obtained if not for the initial illegally obtained evidence. B. Standing. Because the exclusionary rule is an attempt to effectuate the guarantees of the Fourth Amendment, only defendants whose Fourth Amendment rights have been violated are permitted to benefit from the rule’s protections. Courts have found that, “A person who is aggrieved by an illegal search and seizure only through the introduction of damaging evidence secured by a search of a third person’s premises or property has not had any of his Fourth Amendment rights infringed.” In order to claim the protection of the Fourth Amendment, “a defendant must demonstrate that he personally has an expectation of privacy in the place searched and that his expectation is reasonable . . .” (b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect: (1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or catching wildlife resources; (2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a wildlife resource; (3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession; and (4) the contents of any container or receptacle that is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource. (c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain view of the game warden or other peace officer. (d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a search otherwise authorized by this section: (1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or (2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is: (A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic; (B) open to the public; and (C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or other area not intended for vehicular traffic.

07-19-2012, 01:39 PM	#6
treessavoy VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Dunnellon,FL Posts: 1,103 Likes: 0 Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Re: If you like guns Art, First, let me go back to the link Jim Wahl posted. Within the first 5 minutes of the link the commentator says that the UN will be kicking down my door, taking my weapons and beating me; "....it's been done before...." he says. Second, anyone that comes through my door without an invitation or without a warrant is dead and there have been a number of cases throughout the country where police were shot because the didn't identify themselves and home owner was not prosecuted, one in this county a year before I moved here. Third, If what you say is true how would a game warden or cop know I have guns? Are they going house to house just looking? As far as the state is concerned I only have two guns and neither are hunting guns, so why would a game warden come to my house? Fourth, There are not enough game wardens in this state to even cover one city of over 100,000 people. Even if it becomes a law they will never get guns except from those that are too stupid to deny they have one or too dumb to hide them. Police and the Federal Govt have been trying to get guns from criminals since Bonnie and Clyde and you can see how well that worked! JimR __________________ Jim Rountree

07-19-2012, 08:17 PM	#7
art leong VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia Posts: 2,003 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: If you like guns Jim you are still missing the point and looking backwards instead of forwards. In the 1960's. In the southern district of New York, encompassing all of NYC and quite a few other counties. There were 2 game wardens. And hardly any place to hunt and only one fishing law in salt water. When I moved out of NYC in 2006 there were over 300 game wardens for the same area. And a bookful of laws pertaining to saltwater fishing. As they create laws they need more people to enforce them. They then have more power. The more power they have the more laws they pass. Why is the NRA so adamant about gun control? Do we really need the right to own an AK 47 assault rifle? The only thing you hunt with that would have 2 legs and walk upright. BUT. Once they get their foot in the door you will be using muzzle loaders. (till they ban them) Everyone can say they are goiing to hide them. Sounds good. But what do you do if a disaster happens? And someone else finds them? You have a fire, the fireman finds a gun, turns you in. Some one breaks into your house. You shoot them (rightfully so) The cops come to your house, they arrest you. And you are facing mandatory five years. This was similar to what the rules were when I lived in NYC. I could have bought a gun easily. To me it was not worth the risk. __________________ Art Leong 2095 SS