wrong spec submitted by MOPAR

Andys dad · 05-02-2012, 10:53 PM

Yes it was the V10

BTW - all of the V10s were/are really nice cars from MOPAR

I hope it turns out to be as good of an investment as it has been fun

Ron

SS Engine Guy · 05-04-2012, 03:22 AM

Trusting the supplier to do the right thing is the wrong thing to do. The builder should always verify what can and can't be done with tech. Usually in the form of a letter. (however, in the past few years, even a letter isn't worth the paper its written on). There lies the problem. Tech has been over ruled so many times that its all BS. I have freshened many "legal" pieces that had the proper # as per tech and were built totally different than the spec or intention of the rule. Its not hard to stamp letters/numbers/logos on parts.
Like Alan, I have had parts held for long periods of time, finally approved and then notified weeks and even months later that the approval was void. I have made it right by re-doing parts, no charge, even to the point of buying the newly re-defined part at my own expence along with machine work and other parts that were necessary to make this piece "legal" and make it work correctly. Then watch what I was NOT allowed to do go right thru teardown without a word said.
As much engineering and design as was supposed to be done on these super car engines (Ford,Mopar and probably Chev.) there is no excuse for any of these people to be dq'ed. Except for the fact that there is apparantly a lack of knowledge as to the amount of blueprint time required to build a truely fast and completely legal S/SS combination under the rules and guidelines set forth by the santioning bodies. Also, a lack of communication between manufacturers and tech. The attitude of building a regular car seems to be: put it out there and we will work on the problems as they arise. Any dealer tech can tell you stories about the amount of tech bullitins, recalls, replace it free only if the customer complains enough, etc...

Sorry for the long post but I know what its like trying to get a straight answer from aftermarket suppliers and from tech depts. Also, I didn't know there were different ways of measuring the diameter of a valve.

dwydendorf · 05-04-2012, 09:51 AM

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

novassdude · 05-04-2012, 02:42 PM

They should be able to send in the specs what ever way they want. i know on my didgital calipers it is a simple press of the button to switch to metric.

Alan Roehrich · 05-06-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwydendorf

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

By all means. They got 50-100HP worth of "slack" when they got factored. Poor OEM's, by all means, we need to cut them more slack for getting parts approved and getting the correct spec in the class guide. They should apply the same standard to the blueprint guide as they did the factors in the class guide. Anything within 100HP or so is plenty close, so why bother with correct blueprint specs. And I'm all heartbroke over that work load those poor guys are suffering, some of them haven't put a street legal car in the class guide for 4 years. I mean, damn, it's pretty tough to get the correct specs in the class guide for 1/2 a dozen engines. Heaven forbid they have to convert metric to inches, too! Oh, the humanity.

I suggest you go try to sell a product or service to an OEM using the crappy loose standards they've been using to submit specs to the class guide. I hope you don't care anything about staying in business, keeping your house, or eating.

Yeah, cry me a river, those poor, poor, destitute and over worked OEM's.

BlueOval Ralph · 05-07-2012, 08:09 AM

This is a pretty lame excuse about the converting from Metric. There are computer programs and calcs to do this if this was problem it's just sloppy work by the people doing the work. Look at the Ford problems 3 years in a row at US Nationals, now Mopar.
Since they are built to Metric measurement that's what should be submitted and let NHRA do conversion, better yet NHRA should do measuring in metric problem solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwydendorf

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

Larry Hill · 05-07-2012, 08:49 AM

Use 25.4 to convert.

dwydendorf · 05-07-2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

This is a pretty lame excuse about the converting from Metric. There are computer programs and calcs to do this if this was problem it's just sloppy work by the people doing the work. Look at the Ford problems 3 years in a row at US Nationals, now Mopar.
Since they are built to Metric measurement that's what should be submitted and let NHRA do conversion, better yet NHRA should do measuring in metric problem solved.

It's not just the spec that is the problem, its the way NHRA measures parts versus the way the OEM's measure parts. For instance, NHRA has a plus .005 and minus.015 spec on valves size and now the OEM'S have to convert their specs to fit NHRA's specs. Do you honestly think that the OEM's use Plus.005 and Minus .015 as their factory specs? In Ford's case in 2009 and 2011 U.S. Nationals, the mean of the spec wasn't right causing the measured part to be out of NHRA'S spec When was the last time that you guys were in teardown with your own stuff?. I measure my parts pretty close, but one time when I went through teardown at the U.S. Nationals, one of my valves was right on the low limit and I didn't think I was even that close before it was measured. Remember that NHRA uses a Dial or digital caliper to measure your parts with and they just zero it out first before they check your parts. You better hope that your parts measure to the way they are measuring them. The late Division 3 tech director Marty Barrett told a buddy of mine once that their methods don't have to be right, they just have to be official. If you have to go through teardown you better hope that your work isn't sloppy also.

Mickey Whaley · 05-07-2012, 03:12 PM

so how do we handle the problem????????????????????????

novassdude · 05-07-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey Whaley

so how do we handle the problem????????????????????????

There shouldn't be a problem.

It should be simple the OEM has a spec of what dia the valve is supposed to be just like always. say it is 52.832mm (2.08 inches) so its largest dia could be 52.959 dia .127mm (same as .005)+ dia. Its smallest would be 52.451 dia -.381mm (same as the .015). Now there tolerance may not match NHRA's But then it probably never has. These are the same measurements they have used for years.
Now if these motors were built before any specs were out there how where they ever built and how could they be raced with out having specs in the NHRA guide? Seems like a lot of iffy things go on with the new cars. Every time they are found illegal it is always a wrong specs issue.

05-02-2012, 10:53 PM	#1
Andys dad VIP Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Arcadia, Ca Posts: 1,571 Likes: 48 Liked 175 Times in 78 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Yes it was the V10 BTW - all of the V10s were/are really nice cars from MOPAR I hope it turns out to be as good of an investment as it has been fun Ron __________________ time is our most precious resource, you can always make more money but you can never make more time spend your time wisely with the ones you love - Ron Durham Last edited by Andys dad; 05-02-2012 at 11:39 PM.

05-04-2012, 03:22 AM	#2
SS Engine Guy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 256 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Trusting the supplier to do the right thing is the wrong thing to do. The builder should always verify what can and can't be done with tech. Usually in the form of a letter. (however, in the past few years, even a letter isn't worth the paper its written on). There lies the problem. Tech has been over ruled so many times that its all BS. I have freshened many "legal" pieces that had the proper # as per tech and were built totally different than the spec or intention of the rule. Its not hard to stamp letters/numbers/logos on parts. Like Alan, I have had parts held for long periods of time, finally approved and then notified weeks and even months later that the approval was void. I have made it right by re-doing parts, no charge, even to the point of buying the newly re-defined part at my own expence along with machine work and other parts that were necessary to make this piece "legal" and make it work correctly. Then watch what I was NOT allowed to do go right thru teardown without a word said. As much engineering and design as was supposed to be done on these super car engines (Ford,Mopar and probably Chev.) there is no excuse for any of these people to be dq'ed. Except for the fact that there is apparantly a lack of knowledge as to the amount of blueprint time required to build a truely fast and completely legal S/SS combination under the rules and guidelines set forth by the santioning bodies. Also, a lack of communication between manufacturers and tech. The attitude of building a regular car seems to be: put it out there and we will work on the problems as they arise. Any dealer tech can tell you stories about the amount of tech bullitins, recalls, replace it free only if the customer complains enough, etc... Sorry for the long post but I know what its like trying to get a straight answer from aftermarket suppliers and from tech depts. Also, I didn't know there were different ways of measuring the diameter of a valve.

05-04-2012, 09:51 AM	#3
dwydendorf Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: michigan Posts: 162 Likes: 251 Liked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this? __________________ ss/gt 93 t-bird

05-04-2012, 02:42 PM	#4
novassdude Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: usa Posts: 752 Likes: 204 Liked 136 Times in 49 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR They should be able to send in the specs what ever way they want. i know on my didgital calipers it is a simple press of the button to switch to metric.

05-07-2012, 08:49 AM	#7
Larry Hill Live Reporter Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hickory, Ky Posts: 10,640 Likes: 1,937 Liked 10,710 Times in 2,230 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Use 25.4 to convert. __________________ IHM Used Parts https://ihmusedparts.com 888-821-1817

05-07-2012, 03:12 PM	#9
Mickey Whaley VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,220 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR so how do we handle the problem????????????????????????