2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

You don't see regular production cars from Chevy, Dodge or Ford, because they would be terrible combinations. Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The real problem is that it is much harder to get 200-250 hp out of (non-supercharged) new cars once built for Stock. The new Boss 302 is rated at 444 hp and I have seen about 390-400 rwhp on a Dynojet chassis dyno. These cars will run 12.0s at 113 mph with sticky rear tires. We tested a 1970 454 LS-6 Chevelle (auto), factory rated at 450, and it was a good-running example, not a turd. It made 296 rwhp (I would guess it would have made 330-350 rwhp with a stick). I don't remember the torque numbers, but the BBC did make loads of torque.

Once modified for Stock Eliminator, you now have equal (or close to equal) drivetrain, suspension, the same advantages in regards to head mods (valve job), and camshaft, exhaust, etc. You can use all new parts for the 454, just like the 302 (or Chevy LS or Dodge equivalent). They are essentially rated the same, yet the Boss gives up 152 cubic inches!

I would guess that a properly built 454 LS-6 or ZL-1 427 Chevy (or 426 Hemi) makes upwards of 680-700 hp. Could a 302 equal that? Remember, this engine is already making 1.47 hp per cube! This is not a Ford thing, as I'm sure same holds true for the 426 hp Camaro and the 425 hp Dodge.

At 700 hp a 454 is making 1.54 hp per cube
At 700 hp a 302 is making 2.31 hp per cube

Evan, i KINDA see your point. The new engines are way more efficient than that older stuff, for various reasons. That makes it harder to get the large gains out of them, in theory. But the LS-1 cars and even Womack's new C6 disprove your thought that they don't make good stockers. I think the bloated weight of the new cars is a much bigger reason that they don't make good stockers ( hence why the new vette is a good car, its not a pig). Of course none of them are good combos when you have factory ringers that are so far under rated its a crime.

[BlueOval Ralph]

Evan this is incorrect as far as how Ford did it!!!

Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The way Ford did it was there were 3 Horsepower ratings.

A curve was no accessorys (fan, alt, water pump and open exhaust)
B curve was some accessorys (somewhere in between A curve and C curve)
C curve was with Fan, waterpump, alt and exhaust back pressure as installed in vehicle. This was the factory published rating.
all the above were corrected to SAE J 607 which was ans is 29.92 baro, 60 degrees carb air.

Mose Noland could give you more of the details if he remebers

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

You don't see regular production cars from Chevy, Dodge or Ford, because they would be terrible combinations. Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The real problem is that it is much harder to get 200-250 hp out of (non-supercharged) new cars once built for Stock. The new Boss 302 is rated at 444 hp and I have seen about 390-400 rwhp on a Dynojet chassis dyno. These cars will run 12.0s at 113 mph with sticky rear tires. We tested a 1970 454 LS-6 Chevelle (auto), factory rated at 450, and it was a good-running example, not a turd. It made 296 rwhp (I would guess it would have made 330-350 rwhp with a stick). I don't remember the torque numbers, but the BBC did make loads of torque.

Once modified for Stock Eliminator, you now have equal (or close to equal) drivetrain, suspension, the same advantages in regards to head mods (valve job), and camshaft, exhaust, etc. You can use all new parts for the 454, just like the 302 (or Chevy LS or Dodge equivalent). They are essentially rated the same, yet the Boss gives up 152 cubic inches!

I would guess that a properly built 454 LS-6 or ZL-1 427 Chevy (or 426 Hemi) makes upwards of 680-700 hp. Could a 302 equal that? Remember, this engine is already making 1.47 hp per cube! This is not a Ford thing, as I'm sure same holds true for the 426 hp Camaro and the 425 hp Dodge.

At 700 hp a 454 is making 1.54 hp per cube
At 700 hp a 302 is making 2.31 hp per cube

[goinbroke2]

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Evan this is incorrect as far as how Ford did it!!!

Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The way Ford did it was there were 3 Horsepower ratings.

A curve was no accessorys (fan, alt, water pump and open exhaust)
B curve was some accessorys (somewhere in between A curve and C curve)
C curve was with Fan, waterpump, alt and exhaust back pressure as installed in vehicle. This was the factory published rating.
all the above were corrected to SAE J 607 which was ans is 29.92 baro, 60 degrees carb air.

Mose Noland could give you more of the details if he remebers

That is true of pre 1972 cars Ralph, but after that they were "net" with everything installed as today. I used mostly mid 70's cars for that reason.

Regardless of how, or who done what, potential is what a class racers is after.
If eng A is rated at 99% of it's potential, who going to try it? Nobody.
If eng B is rated at 50% of it's potential, everybody will consider it....unless it's hidden, then only Billy Nees or Bob Shaw will find/try it! LOL!

So the only real question is then, what is the true potential of the new motors?
Then, can they be factored the way the old motors were?
In other words;
A is 400hp@ 80% = 500hp 100%
B is 400hp@40% = 1000hp 100%

If both engines start out at .58 factor, one will obviously cause a ruckus.(as we have seen with turbo or supercharged engines)
So, do you rate older or N/A engines at .58 to start and pressurised eng 1.1 to start?
What is a fair place to start pressure engines? Maybe starting them at 1.3hp/cu.in IS fair?