worst red light debate, again!

[Henry S]

I do not usually comment, but I have been reading all 44 pages of this thread and I have some questions.
1. What is the purpose of a red light?
2. Why are there pre stage and stage bulbs?
3. Why were blinders implemented on the tree?
4. Why does Top Fuel, Funny Car, ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle,Pro Mod, TAD, TAFC, S/C,S/G,S/ST, and heads-up runs in Super Stock and Stock all have the worst red light rule in effect but not the Handicap tree?
Were all these for fairness? Please help me to understand.
thanks

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Henry S

I do not usually comment, but I have been reading all 44 pages of this thread and I have some questions.
1. What is the purpose of a red light?
2. Why are there pre stage and stage bulbs?
3. Why were blinders implemented on the tree?
4. Why does Top Fuel, Funny Car, ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle,Pro Mod, TAD, TAFC, S/C,S/G,S/ST, and heads-up runs in Super Stock and Stock all have the worst red light rule in effect but not the Handicap tree?
Were all these for fairness? Please help me to understand.
thanks

Thanks for participating in this discussion, Henry
I look forward to hearing from new people here.

I'll answer with MY opinion ,only that.

1, Obvious ..Not sure what you're looking for here

2, I'm pretty sure there was only a stage bulb on some of the early Xmas tree
The pre-stage was added as a warning signal only, so as to allow racers to know they were close to staging.
(It's purpose has since been corrupted by NHRA,IHRA to be used as a means to disqualify someone ...See Deep Staging, S/SS rulebook)

3, Blinders and cones were added to help ALL racers to see their own lights better, particularly in night racing situations.

4 a, Because that's the way it's always been...since 1963
b, Not necessarily. There was no way to fix this situation until reaction timers became standard at National meets. In retrospect , NHRA could have changed the handicap red light situation from first to worst at that time. Racers would have gotten over it quickly, seeing that it doesn't happen all that often any way (double minus R/T)
Some of us didn't care for the three amber tree either. We just woke up one morning and there it was.. standard equipment.
I wouldn't expect to see a change any time soon due to input from this forum.
With the proliferation of 9 and 10 second cars lately, it has become largely an agenda driven discussion here.

[Jim Wahl]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Jeff said:


"Each participant has the same rule book to review before entering the first race. Each is given equal opportunity to red light. Each is given equal opportunity to cut a .000 reaction time and predict to .00 their ET. Either participant can win or loose based on their own actions."

If you have a quicker car, and I HAVE to leave first (no choice, but to leave first in a handicapped race, if your car is quicker) If I "bulb," you have NO "equal opportunity" to red light; you get a "win" by simply having staged your car.

There is NO situation in which the slower car can "enjoy" the same "gimmee."

The slower car ALWAYS faces red light jeopardy.

The quicker car does NOT. When his competitor red lights, he is REMOVED from red light jeopardy. And, gets a free ride to the next round or, winner's circle.

I can't see anything fair or equitable about that, can you?

If you can, please explain what is fair about that set of circumstances.

Two cars; one quicker, one slower... the slower one ALWAYS faces red light jeopardy... the faster car, ONLY if the first car goes green.

Makes no sense...

If you know of any Bracket tracks that utilize a "worse red light" system, please let me know. I do not.

That means that the starting line protocol (rules) for NHRA or IHRA "class racing" are 100-percent identical to the rules used in the Brackets.

That means that any comments, analyses, criticisms, or opinions that apply to Bracket starting line procedure also apply to class racing. 100-percent.

As such, since it's ALL done the same, WHY would you feel that comments about this system are impertinent, REGARDLESS of where the poster races? Everybody, the poster and the legal class racers, suffer the same, identical, fate at the hands of the first red light rule.

Everybody.

So, why would you think that a Bracket Racer's comments would be impertinent on a class racer's board when whatever is said, applies across the board, class or Bracket?

This particular board was created by Ken for the expressed purpose of giving a voice to people who are not currently racing a class car.

As such, there is no moderator-based editorializing regarding subject matter, or maybe you hadn't noticed?

As long as people who post here don't tell lies, unjustly accuse someone of something, don't slander people and don't use profanity, it would seem to be open to any kind of racing-related subject matter anyone wants to post.

I use it in that manner. As it was intended. If I am doing someting Ken doesn't feel is appropriate, he can tell me and I will cease and desist.

In the meantime, I will assume that SOMEBODY finds this thread interesting and prertinent. I received a phone call from somebody in Canada today (Monday) who said he doesn't post here, but has read every page, and is in awe of how anybody could not agree with me, on the red light issue. He is a former class racer who is currently building a new car.

That was nice to hear.

Your words, here, from this post... "Each is given equal opportunity to red light."

Not true.

The second car to leave gives up that "equal opportunity" if the first-to-leave "bulbs."

That's the unfair part.

You contend that the race is over, when the first-to-leave car bulbs, and THAT IS TRUE, with the current red light rule... but it doesn't have to be that way. That scenario was the result of antiquated electronics that existed in 1963. In the many years since then, advances in electronics have made it possible to fix that inequity.

Let's do it...

Bill, I have read every page and post on this subject. I can now say that I agree with you completely. I don't know what I was afraid of before I changed my mind. Change itself? Maybe. The "no change" side has not put up a good rebuttal to your points. The reasons they come up with for not changing the rule are silly. "You knew the rules when you started", "Make your car faster", "You're a whiner". It now seems to me you have a valid argument. It is one rule change that truly would not disadvantage any racer regardless of how fast or slow it is! Please know that you have made ME a believer. Good luck on your quest. Persevere! Jim

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Henry S

I do not usually comment, but I have been reading all 44 pages of this thread and I have some questions.
1. What is the purpose of a red light?
2. Why are there pre stage and stage bulbs?
3. Why were blinders implemented on the tree?
4. Why does Top Fuel, Funny Car, ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle,Pro Mod, TAD, TAFC, S/C,S/G,S/ST, and heads-up runs in Super Stock and Stock all have the worst red light rule in effect but not the Handicap tree?
Were all these for fairness? Please help me to understand.
thanks

Henry, the pros also go by the first red light. Just so happens it is also the worst. How could it not be? First is ALWAYS also be the worst in a heads up match. Why do people keep acting like it's not?? How can it be any other way? Can somebody please explain that? I can not believe how this keeps coming up. Think!

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Henry S

I do not usually comment, but I have been reading all 44 pages of this thread and I have some questions.
1. What is the purpose of a red light?
2. Why are there pre stage and stage bulbs?
3. Why were blinders implemented on the tree?
4. Why does Top Fuel, Funny Car, ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle,Pro Mod, TAD, TAFC, S/C,S/G,S/ST, and heads-up runs in Super Stock and Stock all have the worst red light rule in effect but not the Handicap tree?
Were all these for fairness? Please help me to understand.
thanks

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
1. Drag racing needs a way to ensure that each participant leaves the starting line after the green light for that lane, is turned on, not before. That guarantees that both competitors have started the race in a timely manner, and have not gained an advantage by getting an undue "head start" that tthey're not entitled to, over the car in the next lane.

Heads up races are simple to produce, as the green light comes on at the same time ffor both lanes, so the first car to register a reaction time that displays less than .000 meaans that that car left before the green light was activated, and since that cannot be done, legally, he is an automatic loser, no matter what the other car does. The second car's reaction time cannot be less of an infraction than that, even IF his reaction time is monitored and evaluated. If he also "bulbs," he would have a red light that is less of an infraction than the first car's red light. In a heads up race of ANY kind, the first car to turn on the red light.loses the race. Simple, and fair.

In a handicapped race, it's not that simple, ideally. With handicapped races, there are TWO green lights, for the two different starting times, the time differential between the two green lights, being the difference between the dial-ins for the two cars.

Let's say, for example, car A has dialed in at 12 seconds flat, and car B has dialed in at 11 seconds flat.

After the cars are staged, the time interval that is established for the handicap, is entered into the timer that activates the green lights for the two cars. At the appropriate instant, the green light for the slower car (first car to leave, necessarily, if it is to be the recipient of the benefit of a handicap) comes on, and that car accelerates away from the starting line, leaving the quicker car sitting, awaiting HIS green light.

When the second car has been sitting, waiting, for the 1-second delayed green light in HIS lane to come on, is given the green light, he also accelerates away from the starting line, in pursuit of the other car, which received the handicap (of 1 second.)

If they both had reaction times (the difference netween the time the green light came on, and the time the car in question rolled out of the staging beam) that were more than .000, the race is on; nobody was disqualified for
red lighting (leaving the staging beam before the green light was activated.)

That is the ideal situation. A race with no "complications."

In a handicapped race, the way the rules read now (and have since 1963, when the Christmas Tree was introduced to NHRA racing on a national event level,) if the first car to leave the starting line leaves too soon, he has "red lit" and is eliminated from further competition, making the second car to leave, the instant winner of that round.

"Pre stage" and "stage" bulbs are the little yellow lights at the top of the Christmas tree. They are there to assist drivers in positioning their cars in the right place, relative to the starting line, as the race is being prosecuted. They are turned on by the race car's wheel as it rolls into their beam, which is a distance of approximately seven inches for the pre-stage beam, and on the starting line for the "stage" beam.

I believe they are infra-red beams. They are just staging aids, but the stage light is critical component of the starting system, becaue it is the beam that must remain "broken" until the green light come on, or a red light" is activated for that lane.

I am not well-versed in th use of "blinders," so, I'll let someone else answer that question.

As for question number four, which was, : "Why does Top Fuel, Funny Car, ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle,Pro Mod, TAD, TAFC, S/C,S/G,S/ST, and heads-up runs in Super Stock and Stock all have the worst red light rule in effect but not the Handicap tree?"

The races in those PRO categories are ALWAYS heads-up... are NEVER handicapped races, so the First red light will always be, also, the Worse red light, also, so, it's a moot point. Either way, red light, and you lose. Period.

You asked, "Were all these for fairness?"

"First or worse" works perfectly for any heads up races, because they are always the same....

Handicap racing is different, because you have cars leaving the line at different times.

The electronic systems available to NHRA in 1963, had no capability of doing what was necessary to determine a winner in the case of different reaction times, when the cars didn't leave off the same green.

The simple thing to do (and, one that seemed to work) was to just do what they did with the heads up cars, and disqualify the first car to red light. End of story.

In the intervening years between 1963 and now, electronic technology has advanced to the level that enables the NHRA's starting line computer to delay the first car's red light from appearing, until the second car to leave has had HIS chance to red light, compare the two, and display a "win" light (along with the losing car's red light) so that each car has had an equal chance to red light.

For reasons unknown to me, some folks don't LIKE the idea of "equal red light jeopardy" and are dead set against the rule change that would enable everyone to have an equal chance to red light.

NHRA has their own reasons against changing to a rule that would take away the advantage that the second car to leave has. That "First red light" rule has been a part of NHRA handicapped racing since 1963, when the Christmas Tree was introduced, so people are used to it, and are reluctant to change just on general principals.

As it stands, now, in 2011, there is no "Worse red light rule" for handicapped racing. The rub is, the old rule is not a rule that enables everyone a chance at a red light. IF the first car to leave, turns on the red bulb,his competition in that round, has won that round without ever having to do anything but stage his car.

Some people think that's not fair.

Hope this helps.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

Bill, I have read every page and post on this subject. I can now say that I agree with you completely. I don't know what I was afraid of before I changed my mind. Change itself? Maybe. The "no change" side has not put up a good rebuttal to your points. The reasons they come up with for not changing the rule are silly. "You knew the rules when you started", "Make your car faster", "You're a whiner". It now seems to me you have a valid argument. It is one rule change that truly would not disadvantage any racer regardless of how fast or slow it is! Please know that you have made ME a believer. Good luck on your quest. Persevere! Jim

Jim,
I REALLY appreciate that you gave this enough attention to come to a decision.

As I have said before, IT'S NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, MY IDEA!

I am not that smart. Obviously...

I had to be shown, several times, and several ways before I could get my so-called brain around the idea, so, I can EASILY understand the people who resist it. It's not really THAT easy to understand, and when somebody comes to the conclusion that YOU just did, it seems so simple.... but, it's not.

Or, maybe I'm just a slow learner, but it took me a couple of MONTHS to get it straight.

Thanks; you just made my day....

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

First is ALWAYS also be the worst in a heads up match. Why do people keep acting like it's not?? How can it be any other way? Can somebody please explain that? I can not believe how this keeps coming up. Think!

Don't you even READ any of this?
Nobody has said ANYTHING about heads up racing. This entire thread is about handicap racing.

I cannot believe you didn't know that.

[SStockDart]

There, Ed, He told you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "I cannlt believe you didn't know that." LMAO

[Bob Mulry]

[Jim Wahl; said..........Bill, I have read every page and post on this subject. I can now say that I agree with you completely. I don't know what I was afraid of before I changed my mind. Change itself? Maybe. The "no change" side has not put up a good rebuttal to your points. The reasons they come up with for not changing the rule are silly. "You knew the rules when you started", "Make your car faster", "You're a whiner". It now seems to me you have a valid argument. It is one rule change that truly would not disadvantage any racer regardless of how fast or slow it is! Please know that you have made ME a believer. Good luck on your quest. Persevere! Jim]



Congratulations on joining the enlightened!!!!!!!

Bob

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by SStockDart

There, Ed, He told you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "I cannlt believe you didn't know that." LMAO

Believe it...