Class versus brackets winning a round

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by SS Engine Guy

Been there done that too....enjoyed it. But that is back in the days that most everyone could work on their own stuff and tech would give you a year off for just about anything. Since then we have been watered down by "cheat of the week" technology backed up by lawyers and threats of lawyers not to mention the "buy your hp factor" that we are forced to contend with. Until tech officials are allowed to enforce the rules without outside interference and factors are with-in 5-10 hp correct (and that will never be because of ahfs) we will continue to be in the same situation which is basically screwed.

You are correct. Not many of us still building our own engines. Most just write a check anymore. That is almost as much fun as driving. Nothing like outrunning a pro built engine with your own stuff.

[Jim Caughlin]

Dick,

For the most part, I ignore your mindless but constant ramblings about minimizing the number of classes but my concern that one of the numerous letters that I'm sure you have written to NHRA might one day stick has lead me to ask you to mind your own friggin' business and stay the hell away from those of us that are actually racing. We (Modifed Compact) already got 'downsized' a few years ago when NHRA reduced and consolidated our classes into Modifed Stock. I was OK with that but I dodged a bullet in that a 4 cylinder super stocker doesn't have a lot of options once your class is gone. It isn't like changing weight or something relatively inexpensive would have switched me to another class, I basicly would have had an expensive bracket car. I've been racing in SS for 24 years and would like to leave it that way.

As imperfect as the rules and classes might be, most everyone that races wants things left the way they are. One more anonymous pushpoll on a website don't mean anything. I know you used to race but you don't anymore and don't have any financial stake in the consequences of rule changes and elimination of classes. I would appreciate it if you would limit your ranting only to matters that directly affect you. If it were your class that was being eliminated, you might have a different view on life.

Jim Caughlin
SS 6019

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by SS Engine Guy

Been there done that too....enjoyed it. But that is back in the days that most everyone could work on their own stuff and tech would give you a year off for just about anything. Since then we have been watered down by "cheat of the week" technology backed up by lawyers and threats of lawyers not to mention the "buy your hp factor" that we are forced to contend with. Until tech officials are allowed to enforce the rules without outside interference and factors are with-in 5-10 hp correct (and that will never be because of ahfs) we will continue to be in the same situation which is basically screwed.

That about sums it up for me.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by ss engine guy

been there done that too....enjoyed it. But that is back in the days that most everyone could work on their own stuff and tech would give you a year off for just about anything. Since then we have been watered down by "cheat of the week" technology backed up by lawyers and threats of lawyers not to mention the "buy your hp factor" that we are forced to contend with. Until tech officials are allowed to enforce the rules without outside interference and factors are with-in 5-10 hp correct (and that will never be because of ahfs) we will continue to be in the same situation which is basically screwed.

x 3

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Pedigo Perf

There is something extra exciting about a heads-up race, first to the finish line wins. It's like a little slice of Pro Stock for the sportsman racer.

Agreed but the discouraging part is the lenghts some Stock/SS racers go to in order to avoid a heads up confrontation. I've never seen any bracket racer do that.

[Pedigo Perf]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Agreed but the discouraging part is the lenghts some Stock/SS racers go to in order to avoid a heads up confrontation. I've never seen any bracket racer do that.

That game ends with time trials. Try to pick who your going to run (or avoid) with 75+ cars all changing the order around at random. We qualify and the ladder starts with first round not second. As for class eliminations, I agree with you to a point and NHRA needs to deal with that. A simple general rule on who runs who with previous ET as a determining factor would help cure that problem.

TP

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Agreed but the discouraging part is the lenghts some Stock/SS racers go to in order to avoid a heads up confrontation. I've never seen any bracket racer do that.

You're not serious are you?Some bracket racers are masters at avoiding running certain others.Years ago at Westhampton I won heavy two weeks in a row.I had a habit of being the first one in the lanes.Well the next week I got in the right lane and everyone proceeded to line up behind me.Same thing used to happen at Englishtown when I ran Pro ET.
At least S/SS guys do it in tech when classifying.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

You're not serious are you?Some bracket racers are masters at avoiding running certain others.Years ago at Westhampton I won heavy two weeks in a row.I had a habit of being the first one in the lanes.Well the next week I got in the right lane and everyone proceeded to line up behind me.Same thing used to happen at Englishtown when I ran Pro ET.
At least S/SS guys do it in tech when classifying.

That doesn't happen around here Ed. I don't normally run Pro bracket but last race we were 4 wide in the lanes. They have a formula to mix up the cars. Even as the lanes moved up I had no idea who I'd run as they will pull several from one row then 1 from the next. I know a lot of the "heavy's like to go up last though.

As for S/SS, why do guys try qualify on the opposite side of a ladder than a similar class car they know is faster. Seems like trying to avoid a heads up to me and that is well after tech and classifying.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

That doesn't happen around here Ed. I don't normally run Pro bracket but last race we were 4 wide in the lanes. They have a formula to mix up the cars. Even as the lanes moved up I had no idea who I'd run as they will pull several from one row then 1 from the next. I know a lot of the "heavy's like to go up last though.

As for S/SS, why do guys try qualify on the opposite side of a ladder than a similar class car they know is faster. Seems like trying to avoid a heads up to me and that is well after tech and classifying.

The hiders usually came in near the back of the lanes,at least when I ran Pro,which eventually was called Brk 2,supposedly no electronics.That's when I called it quits,around 1991.Then the electric generation came in.
You're right about guys laying it down in qualifying.How can you stop guys from dumping at 1K feet?
It's a shame that all the game playing goes on,but that's the way of the world now.
Joe,you're right about the cash part.

[Matt Welker]

Originally Posted by THE LEGEND

Matt,
You make some good points. HEADS UP is HEADS UP no way around it, but when you put shoe polish on the window it's still a bracket race.

The key is "WHEN", when a class racers puts show polish on his window. Tell me, "WHEN" does a bracket racer take it off his window? I do like your focus, the approach is correct, because as a class racer, it is a matter of "when", because it doesn't happen all the time and there are specific instances when we run a whole race within a race (like class eliminations after qualifying where we don't use it), then later, when it is necessary, we use show polish for those special bracket runs.

Bracket racers are the same to me as guys who race in a heads up only eliminator (pro or sportsman level), they each have a different, SINGLE focus. In S/SS, there is a duality at work and you need both skills (driving and performance) to win (and I'm taking high car count divisions like 1 and 3, no disrespect to the other divisions or those running cars in less populated classes). Sure, you can make it through a race without a heads up run, but it is unlikely a World Champ won't have one or be effected by a heads up run in some manner during a season. (Please don't response that a bracket racer has performance issues/concerns, they have no necessity to get every last ounce of efficiency out of their car within strict limitations that will be verified, and we both have the same consistency issues.)

For me, INDY is the pinnacle for S/SS, you need performance to get in, performance for class, and you also need driving (those bracket skills) for much of the eliminator. Any racer who can put together both the performance and bracket skills together has my attention and respect. When you bracket race, is there a qualified field where some don't make the eliminator? No, oh, must be that performance issue again for class racers....lets just ignore it, it's just a bracket race, right? And, yes, I have been at a divisional with a full field in stock where racers didn't make the field. Yes, we have been to Indy and not had our cars make the eliminator and we don't complain, we work harder on our performance. Why? Because it's not just a bracket race.

I don't look down on a racer who has a single focus (bracket/heads up only), but I do look up to a S/SS racer who can do both with repeated success. Any serious racer/fan has seen what someone like John Shaul (just one example) has done the past two years. Won national events (I think both on the west coast had heads up runs, one with multiple heads up runs), won a divisional event (don't think he had any heads up runs), and many Class wins along the way.

Sorry, but I think it's harder, and I have more respect, for a driver and their team who not only has to complete in a bracket style race, but also must be ready to go from a bracket round to a heads up run and back again. It is hard enough to do one thing well in racing, but S/SS guys have to do two things well and the ability to do both is the challenge in these classes, that's why it isn't "just a bracket race".

I would still show up if only class winners got to race in the eliminator. If that was the case, then I'd give a **** about what NHRA does with the AHFS. It's not, so I'll continue to play that game as well as the ladder game, sometimes avoiding and sometimes seeking, LOL.