How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? - Page 3

Robert Swartz · 10-23-2010, 09:09 AM

Probably as long as "affordable" bodies are still available to use as a basis to build cars from. Let's be honest here, as someone said, many of the cars running today are more valuable as restored classics than they are as race cars. For some, budget isn't a problem, so they can take a rotted hulk and spend a fortune to build a car first, then make a race car from that.

Dare I say, for many of us, we have to have a usable platform to start with. With the older cars, that not only is, but for a long time has started to become a problem. Add to this the Barret-Jackson/Mecom/Satruday morning CARtoon shows, that have caused everyone with a junk body of any kind laying around to think they're setting on their retirement goldmine. I'd wager, the cost of building an old car versus buying a new car, isn't going to be that far apart, very soon.

It's interesting, in the mid-70's, NHRA instituted the 15 year rule for stock to legislate the early 40's-50's car out of the eliminator. Now 35 or so years later, we're doing the same thing they sought to prevent, kind of ironic, isn't it? It's been joked about but, the idea of a vintage class or "stock appearing" eliminator, may not be as far fetched as it appears. At that point, it becomes a pure bracket class and the end of the class as we know it.

For a class to remain relevant, it does need to appeal to the younger generations. That means newer vehicles THEY can openly relate to. We can do all the polls we want, this board, like most discussion forums is only a microcosm of the hobby. A trip to the track is revealing, most of the participants (I hope to be included in this categorey someday, again) in stock are older. A restrictive class with restrictive rules are not what the majority of the younger crowd seeks.

My .02,

Robert Swartz

Alan Roehrich · 10-23-2010, 09:49 AM

There are a lot of 20 and 30 something people in Stock. Not a majority by any stretch, but quite a few. Some of them are running older iron. Honestly, with the current expense of building a Stock Eliminator car and traveling, few people under 30 can afford it. Especially in this economy.

Consider that a reasonably competitive budget car is $20K. A truck and open trailer is $15K if you want something late model and reliable. That's a budget rig. Next, to compete on a regional basis, you need at least 6-7 three day weekends to run the LODRS races. Then you need another 4-5 three to five day weekends to run the National Events in your region. How many 20 something, or even 30 something people can get that much time off, from a job that pays well enough for them to spend at least $500 for at least those ten weekends?

Saying the big thing keeping young people out of Stock is the old cars is a bit of a stretch, and that's being generous. The restrictive rules angle doesn't play that well either. While there will always be the "take the easy way" element, there will also be those who prefer the technical thinking route. Nothing you can do to Stock, while at least maintaining some semblance of the original intent and spirit, will draw the "easy" crowd. They ain't coming, just forget it.

MikeFicacci · 10-23-2010, 10:17 AM

I'm 25 years old and purchased a C/SA 1972 Corvette at the beginning of the year. I would like to know how many guys in their 20's have purchased a "new car".

Andys dad · 10-23-2010, 11:20 AM

Just to clarify - I am not trying to justify buying a $100,000 Stocker (?) - I am trying to justify NOT selling my old car cheap. We all know Stockers cost a lot of money - hell there are many $40,000 to $80,000 (or more) older Stockers out there now - ask guys with the really fast, nice older ones.

I also feel like some have said, these old cars are very popular and will be for a long, long time. I wondered what the rest of you think and how you see it. I clearly do not have that many years left, but it seems my '70 Camaro will be OK for a long time.

I think there is a "sea change" and it is inevitable in our form of drag racing - it is an evolutionary adjustment. NHRA is going to want to keep the old and introduce the new in a way which makes us all happy (if that is possible) - as Bernie said the EFI cars have come from being way off to fitting in where they should.

As a final thought – don’t you think these new cars can have some of the tricks we have learned about our older combinations added to them and go even faster? - imagine them 10 years from now – wow

Ron Durham
aka – Andy’s Dad

:-) peace

Rory McNeil · 10-23-2010, 11:57 AM

Although I have only been running in Stock for 8 years now, I have been hanging around with a few buddys Stock & S/S cars for more like 20. And in that time, it seems that most "new" racers have either moved up from the brackets, or are following Fathers, Uncles, or older brothers who have been racing class for years. I have seen very few 20-30ish racers entering Stock or S/S without prior family involvment.
In addition to a limited Stock schedule (typically 1 NHRA Nat`l event and maybe 3 LODRS), I also run in a stickshift association bracket series, and have ran in a local Stock-S/S association, both close to home, and have noticed that even our local tracks bracket program has been dwindling over recent years. Now some must be blamed on the economic situation, and skyrocketing real estate costs, however, I think than many younger people don`t like the "silly" restrictive rules that are the backbone of Stock & S/S. Our local tracks Friday nite "Street Legal" races are normally very well attended, but the majority of cars are either imports, late model cars, or 80`s-90`s Mustangs & Camaros. I have talked to a bunch of these younger people, and most think having to spend money on "junk factory" heads is crazy, when you can buy new aluminum aftermarket stuff for less. Why spend money on a blueprinted class legal engine when you can go faster with a nitrous oxide kit, or a supercharger? They don`t care how poorly their cars suspension is setup, a low 12 second car going 125 MPH is not uncommon. Plus they don`t want to pay more at the gate, and possibly lose 1rst round, when thay can "race" the street legals all night for $25. or $30. Sad but true. JMO

junior barns · 10-23-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeFicacci

I'm 25 years old and purchased a C/SA 1972 Corvette at the beginning of the year. I would like to know how many guys in their 20's have purchased a "new car".

And looks good plus running well also!! Who's doing your work? engine if I might ask?

MikeFicacci · 10-23-2010, 12:51 PM

I appreciate it. My father does all of the engines. It's still new and we're trying to figure it out. It's definitely a different beast than the small blocks and higher-compression big blocks but that's also what is making it fun.

Robert Swartz · 10-23-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Although I have only been running in Stock for 8 years now, I have been hanging around with a few buddys Stock & S/S cars for more like 20. And in that time, it seems that most "new" racers have either moved up from the brackets, or are following Fathers, Uncles, or older brothers who have been racing class for years. I have seen very few 20-30ish racers entering Stock or S/S without prior family involvment.
In addition to a limited Stock schedule (typically 1 NHRA Nat`l event and maybe 3 LODRS), I also run in a stickshift association bracket series, and have ran in a local Stock-S/S association, both close to home, and have noticed that even our local tracks bracket program has been dwindling over recent years. Now some must be blamed on the economic situation, and skyrocketing real estate costs, however, I think than many younger people don`t like the "silly" restrictive rules that are the backbone of Stock & S/S. Our local tracks Friday nite "Street Legal" races are normally very well attended, but the majority of cars are either imports, late model cars, or 80`s-90`s Mustangs & Camaros. I have talked to a bunch of these younger people, and most think having to spend money on "junk factory" heads is crazy, when you can buy new aluminum aftermarket stuff for less. Why spend money on a blueprinted class legal engine when you can go faster with a nitrous oxide kit, or a supercharger? They don`t care how poorly their cars suspension is setup, a low 12 second car going 125 MPH is not uncommon. Plus they don`t want to pay more at the gate, and possibly lose 1rst round, when thay can "race" the street legals all night for $25. or $30. Sad but true. JMO

Rory,

Seems you and I have talked to some of the same people. A handful of guys I work with look at me like I'm from Mars when I tell them I'm building a second car to run in Stock. They just can't fathom why I want to build an engine with factory iron heads and a hydraulic camshaft. Then when they find out you have to run a "stock" suspension and 9" tires, they just don't get it. Like you said, when you can get aluminum heads, good roller cams, shoot, you can order a whole engine straight from the catlogue, almost guarantee you can run in the 10's out of the box. Like you said as well, they would rather attend the street nites and run their cars as much as they want.

Alan, I will say this. I've looked at some of the cars the younger guys have built. I'm not 100% convinced they have taken the easy way. Some of the set ups with the power adders, twin turbos and the electronics. They have to work on these cars, just in different ways than we did/do. Actually, I'm amazed at the power some of these guys make with the imports. On the other hand, many of my friends don't understand why I don't want to build a nitrous motor or put a delay box in my bracket car. Personally, it's not what I want to do.

Bring on the new cars.

Robert Swartz

Allan Dame · 10-23-2010, 09:00 PM

Just my Opinion and every AH has 1
At least my car accelerates when i step on the pedal and decellerates when i let off and also when I step on the brakes they work everytime No delay ...Dont forget We here in the USA we are the 1s to develope True Muscle cars and the rest of the world tried to copy..
I will keep my 40 year old car untill Hell freezes over.... No onboard computers for me.This is Dragracing Not Laptop Racing... I know..Iknow Times are changing, Doesnt mean I have to like it...
Just My 02s worth
SS/FA 70 Cuda No its NOT a Hemi
Allan

KingReptile · 10-23-2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan Dame

Just my Opinion and every AH has 1
At least my car accelerates when i step on the pedal and decellerates when i let off and also when I step on the brakes they work everytime No delay ...Dont forget We here in the USA we are the 1s to develope True Muscle cars and the rest of the world tried to copy..
I will keep my 40 year old car untill Hell freezes over.... No onboard computers for me.This is Dragracing Not Laptop Racing... I know..Iknow Times are changing, Doesnt mean I have to like it...
Just My 02s worth
SS/FA 70 Cuda No its NOT a Hemi
Allan

Well said!!!

10-23-2010, 09:09 AM	#21
Robert Swartz Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Nineveh, Indiana Posts: 512 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? Probably as long as "affordable" bodies are still available to use as a basis to build cars from. Let's be honest here, as someone said, many of the cars running today are more valuable as restored classics than they are as race cars. For some, budget isn't a problem, so they can take a rotted hulk and spend a fortune to build a car first, then make a race car from that. Dare I say, for many of us, we have to have a usable platform to start with. With the older cars, that not only is, but for a long time has started to become a problem. Add to this the Barret-Jackson/Mecom/Satruday morning CARtoon shows, that have caused everyone with a junk body of any kind laying around to think they're setting on their retirement goldmine. I'd wager, the cost of building an old car versus buying a new car, isn't going to be that far apart, very soon. It's interesting, in the mid-70's, NHRA instituted the 15 year rule for stock to legislate the early 40's-50's car out of the eliminator. Now 35 or so years later, we're doing the same thing they sought to prevent, kind of ironic, isn't it? It's been joked about but, the idea of a vintage class or "stock appearing" eliminator, may not be as far fetched as it appears. At that point, it becomes a pure bracket class and the end of the class as we know it. For a class to remain relevant, it does need to appeal to the younger generations. That means newer vehicles THEY can openly relate to. We can do all the polls we want, this board, like most discussion forums is only a microcosm of the hobby. A trip to the track is revealing, most of the participants (I hope to be included in this categorey someday, again) in stock are older. A restrictive class with restrictive rules are not what the majority of the younger crowd seeks. My .02, Robert Swartz __________________ Robert Swartz - Swartz & Lane 66 Chevy II Pro 95 Achieva EF/SA, 78 Mustang II U/SA (work in progress) #354 stock

10-23-2010, 09:49 AM	#22
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,105 Likes: 1,564 Liked 1,789 Times in 408 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? There are a lot of 20 and 30 something people in Stock. Not a majority by any stretch, but quite a few. Some of them are running older iron. Honestly, with the current expense of building a Stock Eliminator car and traveling, few people under 30 can afford it. Especially in this economy. Consider that a reasonably competitive budget car is $20K. A truck and open trailer is $15K if you want something late model and reliable. That's a budget rig. Next, to compete on a regional basis, you need at least 6-7 three day weekends to run the LODRS races. Then you need another 4-5 three to five day weekends to run the National Events in your region. How many 20 something, or even 30 something people can get that much time off, from a job that pays well enough for them to spend at least $500 for at least those ten weekends? Saying the big thing keeping young people out of Stock is the old cars is a bit of a stretch, and that's being generous. The restrictive rules angle doesn't play that well either. While there will always be the "take the easy way" element, there will also be those who prefer the technical thinking route. Nothing you can do to Stock, while at least maintaining some semblance of the original intent and spirit, will draw the "easy" crowd. They ain't coming, just forget it. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

10-23-2010, 10:17 AM	#23
MikeFicacci Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241 Likes: 1 Liked 19 Times in 2 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? I'm 25 years old and purchased a C/SA 1972 Corvette at the beginning of the year. I would like to know how many guys in their 20's have purchased a "new car". __________________ Mike Ficacci Stk 1010

10-23-2010, 11:20 AM	#24
Andys dad VIP Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Arcadia, Ca Posts: 1,571 Likes: 48 Liked 175 Times in 78 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? Just to clarify - I am not trying to justify buying a $100,000 Stocker (?) - I am trying to justify NOT selling my old car cheap. We all know Stockers cost a lot of money - hell there are many $40,000 to $80,000 (or more) older Stockers out there now - ask guys with the really fast, nice older ones. I also feel like some have said, these old cars are very popular and will be for a long, long time. I wondered what the rest of you think and how you see it. I clearly do not have that many years left, but it seems my '70 Camaro will be OK for a long time. I think there is a "sea change" and it is inevitable in our form of drag racing - it is an evolutionary adjustment. NHRA is going to want to keep the old and introduce the new in a way which makes us all happy (if that is possible) - as Bernie said the EFI cars have come from being way off to fitting in where they should. As a final thought – don’t you think these new cars can have some of the tricks we have learned about our older combinations added to them and go even faster? - imagine them 10 years from now – wow Ron Durham aka – Andy’s Dad :-) peace __________________ time is our most precious resource, you can always make more money but you can never make more time spend your time wisely with the ones you love - Ron Durham

10-23-2010, 11:57 AM	#25
Rory McNeil VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: from Vancouver BC Canada, now in Nova Scotia Posts: 1,311 Likes: 315 Liked 1,103 Times in 301 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? Although I have only been running in Stock for 8 years now, I have been hanging around with a few buddys Stock & S/S cars for more like 20. And in that time, it seems that most "new" racers have either moved up from the brackets, or are following Fathers, Uncles, or older brothers who have been racing class for years. I have seen very few 20-30ish racers entering Stock or S/S without prior family involvment. In addition to a limited Stock schedule (typically 1 NHRA Nat`l event and maybe 3 LODRS), I also run in a stickshift association bracket series, and have ran in a local Stock-S/S association, both close to home, and have noticed that even our local tracks bracket program has been dwindling over recent years. Now some must be blamed on the economic situation, and skyrocketing real estate costs, however, I think than many younger people don`t like the "silly" restrictive rules that are the backbone of Stock & S/S. Our local tracks Friday nite "Street Legal" races are normally very well attended, but the majority of cars are either imports, late model cars, or 80`s-90`s Mustangs & Camaros. I have talked to a bunch of these younger people, and most think having to spend money on "junk factory" heads is crazy, when you can buy new aluminum aftermarket stuff for less. Why spend money on a blueprinted class legal engine when you can go faster with a nitrous oxide kit, or a supercharger? They don`t care how poorly their cars suspension is setup, a low 12 second car going 125 MPH is not uncommon. Plus they don`t want to pay more at the gate, and possibly lose 1rst round, when thay can "race" the street legals all night for $25. or $30. Sad but true. JMO __________________ NHRA 6390 STK M/S 85 Mustang

10-23-2010, 12:51 PM	#27
MikeFicacci Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241 Likes: 1 Liked 19 Times in 2 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? I appreciate it. My father does all of the engines. It's still new and we're trying to figure it out. It's definitely a different beast than the small blocks and higher-compression big blocks but that's also what is making it fun. __________________ Mike Ficacci Stk 1010

10-23-2010, 09:00 PM	#29
Allan Dame Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lebanon,Maine Posts: 25 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How long do you think 40 to 50 year old cars can continue to be raced? Just my Opinion and every AH has 1 At least my car accelerates when i step on the pedal and decellerates when i let off and also when I step on the brakes they work everytime No delay ...Dont forget We here in the USA we are the 1s to develope True Muscle cars and the rest of the world tried to copy.. I will keep my 40 year old car untill Hell freezes over.... No onboard computers for me.This is Dragracing Not Laptop Racing... I know..Iknow Times are changing, Doesnt mean I have to like it... Just My 02s worth SS/FA 70 Cuda No its NOT a Hemi Allan