Stock and the late models, a solution.

Evan Smith · 10-14-2010, 03:18 PM

I will preface this post by saying that I am a fan of both early and late-model muscle and both sides have great points. But new cars are here to stay and if rated equally there is no problem.

With that said, in order for Stock to continue, and be something more than a nostalgia class, we need new cars—but there is a big problem that is not often discussed. The vast majority of the '60-70s muscle cars, which makes up a larger portion of our class, were rated far differently than today's cars (gross vs net). In addition, new cars are more efficient and make more power for their displacement (especially in OE trim), so there is not as much performance to be gained and therefore, it is not fair to rate old and new cars the same.

I've drag tested virtually every new American performance car since the mid-'90s and some early muscle, too. Most stock big-block muscle cars such as a 428 CJ Mustang and a 396/375 Camaro basically run high 13s at just over 100 mph. Any one of these cars suffer from inefficient front engine dress, crappy exhaust systems, and would make about 100 hp less than the factory rating at the wheels. But in Stocker trim, they can make 200-or-more hp than the factory rating! That is a huge swing, upwards of 300hp over what a stock muscle car can make at the wheels once you eliminate the front dress, and build a Class-legal engine. This is not the case for most new cars. As the new 412hp Mustang makes about 360-370 at the wheels, or, about 100 more than a typical 400hp muscle car from the '60s, yet with about 100 less cubes.

A '66 427 Fairlane I tested ran 13.3/105 on 7-inch tires, CJ Mustang ran 13.8, '71 Boss 351 ran 13.6 and a 396/375 Camaro ran 13.7, all over 100 mph. Any of these cars would probably 12s with open headers, gear swap and slicks, but can run 9s in Stocker trim.

The 2011 Mustang GT, rated at 412 hp ran 12.6/112 on stock tires and at 3,800 lbs, about the same weight as the Fairlane. This is a 427 vs a 302 (both naturally aspirated) at the same weight. My point is that there is not going to be nearly as much left in the 302, but we expect it to compete with the 427 under the same NHRA hp/engine rule system. You can make the same comparison with the new Camaro; A 426hp rating from the factory, which would have to compete with a 427 Camaro (again 376 vs 427 cubes, both rated about 425). In race "built Stocker" trim there is no way a new vehicle can compete using the OE ratings so what is the factory to do if it wants to have cars out there running? Answer, it builds specialty cars with reduced hp ratings.

So what is the answer?

It has been suggested that NHRA use a chassis dyno, but this will not work because loose converters and today's clutches won't produce accurate numbers, at least enough to compare the cars for the purpose of evaluating hp. Most stick stockers would burn up the clutch on a dyno (I know I've wasted a few), and any two different converters can produce varied results, even behind the same engine. Fail!

My suggestion is to devise a hp system that allows the mass of new production cars to compete and to have NHRA monitor and police this (yes, I'm dreaming). As amazing as the standard-production Challengers, Camaros and Mustangs are, there are none being raced in the regular-production trim in NHRA Stock. That is the sad part to me, but who in their right mind would race a new 302 rated at 412, or a Camaro rated at 426?

Imagine if by 1971 no one had built a '69 Camaro or 428 Mustang? Unthinkable. I think the specialty cars are great and deserve to race, but I would also like to see the regular models being raced, and this will only happen if NHRA can devise a system to rate them more equally.

As for the current CJ and DP cars, most of those guys just want to go fast, so let them run in a special class for new cars, but also let other Stockers compete if they want to do battle. I love the factory cars, but having the best cars in the country be outrun by a half-second makes no sense. BTW, I'm all for combining stick and auto, realistically, it would be a wash across the board (better efficiency with the stick vs radials and ultra-light autos). More heads-up competition, but not over the top.

Evan

Mike Carr · 10-14-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

IA '66 427 Fairlane I tested ran 13.3/105 on 7-inch tires, CJ Mustang ran 13.8, '71 Boss 351 ran 13.6 and a 396/375 Camaro ran 13.7, all over 100 mph. Any of these cars would probably 12s with open headers, gear swap and slicks, but can run 9s in Stocker trim.

Evan

And the amazing thing about that is, my stock, daily driven '95 LT-1 automatic Camaro ran a best of 13.881 at Quaker City, 99.83 mph at Dragway 42, granted with a wider profile street tire. Best 60' was 1.98.

My opinion about the new cars, the quickest, easiest fix is to create FX-classes. I echo the sentiments of many--the new cars are cool, and if they bring new cars, drivers, fans, manufacturer interest, media attention, etc to our sport, that is a good thing. It just isn't good/fair to have them dominate at the expense of the old iron. If the performance levels of the new cars eventually equal out, then you can re-combine them, as was done with the FI cars/classes.

Dave Casey · 10-14-2010, 04:52 PM

My Thoughts

I don't want any new classes with one exception. Many new cars have a blower or turbo, these cars need to be in their own class. I don't believe it will ever be possible to factor these cars to run with non pressurized cars. Make a 7,8,and 9 lb blown/turbo class, combine sticks and autos together. If you are truly looking toward the future, this will help as all manufacturers have or will have these cars .

Non pressurized(normally aspirated) cars should stay as is or eliminate a few classes. We just need the new cars to be factored better to begin with. Now that there are a host of underfactored cars, 2 things should happen.

1. review and raise some factors soon
2. Make the factoring system in place more aggressive

two last points ,,,,

I personally think our cars are plenty fast now, I would hate to see any wt breaks lower than 7 lbs/hp.

We don't need purpose built factory cars that are not made for street use originally. Stop accepting them now. I know the ones already accepted are here to stay, but enough of it.There are plenty of good performance cars out there that would fit right in with this category

House of Darts · 10-14-2010, 05:46 PM

How many posts have been devoted to the new cars? All the factory cars from the 60's have found their way into the "PROPER" class (more or less). I imagine that there were some GM and Ford racers that were pissed when Chrysler brought out their factory cars. Thank God that the BIG 3 have not decided to build smart cars. This a great opportunity to get the BIG3 and NHRA/IHRA to start posting $ for winning class. Higher payout by the BIG 3 for using their models and parts. More racers come out. More spectators come out. More cars are sold. And the saga continues. Crate motors are a great idea. Easing up on some of the blueprint specs/replacement parts is good too.If it gets easier to run S/SS, how about divisinals with just S/SS with 300 car counts. All done in 2 days.

NewHemi · 10-18-2010, 05:18 PM

I have agreed all along that the new cars need new classes. I had hoped that would happen before we even tracked our car. I also agree that the blown/huffercharged cars should be in their own class(es).

And although it may surprise some, we new car owners are not horned devils who came out of under earth solely to wreck drag racing and stock classes. We are just like you were at some point when you bought a car to go racing. You picked something that looked good, or met your interest for some other reason, possibly even because it had some "advantage." I bought my car for no other reason than wanting a piece of history, and my first love was always drag racing, which I missed over much of my life due to being a responsible husband and father, so now at this point in my life, what better than being able to live a dream? I had no idea that the car would have an advantage. But it does. So because of that, am I supposed to just sell it? I don't think that is a good solution either.

Rule changes are the only thing that will make anything better.

I don't completely agree on a lot of the "proposed" changes, and admit to a personal bias. But I do certainly agree that something is needed.

Then it is simply a question of what form the changes should take. If the form it takes, is something that drives the new cars into the garage permanently which seems to be the intent of some of the more radical suggestions, then that hardly seems very fair either. And to those who say that can't happen, look back to history. It has, it could, and if some have their way, it will happen again.

As for those who argue that we just need to "fix the factors", I suggest that in fairness, and to make sure that the playing field is as level as possible, then the hp factors on ALL cars should be previewed and "fixed". If the older cars are not that out of line, the review shouldn't hurt them as much as it does the newer cars.

A new group/set of classes, seems to be the most practical approach. I don't understand why us having a few new classes would upset anyone else's applecart, but it apparently does.

David
The New Hemi Guy

W J · 10-18-2010, 08:50 PM

Well said, David. I won't speak for the CJ cars, but I'll say this regarding the DP Challengers: These cars, especially the motors, pretty much have to be completely taken apart, re-done, and more often than not, re-done a few more times to make them anywhere close to race ready, let alone competitively race ready. They are FAR from a race-ready car when purchased from Mopar. It's taking MUCH
more work AND money by the buyers of these cars to bring out their potential...There surely is a place for the great new American Muscle...Re-class them, similar to what they've done w/the "H" Mopars, or whatever.....NHRA's holding this bag and it's up to them to straighten THEIR MESS out....some people here are putting the hate on the people who've bought and are racing these CJ and DP cars and it's surely not right.........put the squeeze on NHRA---where it belongs. Just my opinion of what's happened in Stock Eliminator this season....

Warren Lederer. WJ

Jack McCarthy · 10-20-2010, 12:07 PM

ken offers a solution, maybe not perfect but he offers a solution... most just bitch.

my idea is a A/B/C - FX classes that run outside of stock eliminator, heads up, finals on sunday ... when the cars get say 5 years old then they join us now that we have a good HP / POTENTIAL input from 5 years of heads ups !!!

i think it adds excitement to nhra, oem and the fans are exposed to the old win on sunday sell on monday mantra ?

jack

and to those no heads up racers... find a bracket race !

MikeFicacci · 10-20-2010, 12:13 PM

Taking the chance of getting yelled at by Ken, there is an awesome place for these cars to race. It's called NHRA Unleashed. For those of you who don't know, Unleashed is NHRA's answer to the NMRA/NMCA and is mainly heads-up racing directed towards the young crowd. Blowers, turbos, 2-feet tall intakes, and decent crowds in their 20's and 30's. This is actually the perfect place for these cars.

10-14-2010, 03:18 PM	#1
Evan Smith Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 400 Likes: 7 Liked 115 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. I will preface this post by saying that I am a fan of both early and late-model muscle and both sides have great points. But new cars are here to stay and if rated equally there is no problem. With that said, in order for Stock to continue, and be something more than a nostalgia class, we need new cars—but there is a big problem that is not often discussed. The vast majority of the '60-70s muscle cars, which makes up a larger portion of our class, were rated far differently than today's cars (gross vs net). In addition, new cars are more efficient and make more power for their displacement (especially in OE trim), so there is not as much performance to be gained and therefore, it is not fair to rate old and new cars the same. I've drag tested virtually every new American performance car since the mid-'90s and some early muscle, too. Most stock big-block muscle cars such as a 428 CJ Mustang and a 396/375 Camaro basically run high 13s at just over 100 mph. Any one of these cars suffer from inefficient front engine dress, crappy exhaust systems, and would make about 100 hp less than the factory rating at the wheels. But in Stocker trim, they can make 200-or-more hp than the factory rating! That is a huge swing, upwards of 300hp over what a stock muscle car can make at the wheels once you eliminate the front dress, and build a Class-legal engine. This is not the case for most new cars. As the new 412hp Mustang makes about 360-370 at the wheels, or, about 100 more than a typical 400hp muscle car from the '60s, yet with about 100 less cubes. A '66 427 Fairlane I tested ran 13.3/105 on 7-inch tires, CJ Mustang ran 13.8, '71 Boss 351 ran 13.6 and a 396/375 Camaro ran 13.7, all over 100 mph. Any of these cars would probably 12s with open headers, gear swap and slicks, but can run 9s in Stocker trim. The 2011 Mustang GT, rated at 412 hp ran 12.6/112 on stock tires and at 3,800 lbs, about the same weight as the Fairlane. This is a 427 vs a 302 (both naturally aspirated) at the same weight. My point is that there is not going to be nearly as much left in the 302, but we expect it to compete with the 427 under the same NHRA hp/engine rule system. You can make the same comparison with the new Camaro; A 426hp rating from the factory, which would have to compete with a 427 Camaro (again 376 vs 427 cubes, both rated about 425). In race "built Stocker" trim there is no way a new vehicle can compete using the OE ratings so what is the factory to do if it wants to have cars out there running? Answer, it builds specialty cars with reduced hp ratings. So what is the answer? It has been suggested that NHRA use a chassis dyno, but this will not work because loose converters and today's clutches won't produce accurate numbers, at least enough to compare the cars for the purpose of evaluating hp. Most stick stockers would burn up the clutch on a dyno (I know I've wasted a few), and any two different converters can produce varied results, even behind the same engine. Fail! My suggestion is to devise a hp system that allows the mass of new production cars to compete and to have NHRA monitor and police this (yes, I'm dreaming). As amazing as the standard-production Challengers, Camaros and Mustangs are, there are none being raced in the regular-production trim in NHRA Stock. That is the sad part to me, but who in their right mind would race a new 302 rated at 412, or a Camaro rated at 426? Imagine if by 1971 no one had built a '69 Camaro or 428 Mustang? Unthinkable. I think the specialty cars are great and deserve to race, but I would also like to see the regular models being raced, and this will only happen if NHRA can devise a system to rate them more equally. As for the current CJ and DP cars, most of those guys just want to go fast, so let them run in a special class for new cars, but also let other Stockers compete if they want to do battle. I love the factory cars, but having the best cars in the country be outrun by a half-second makes no sense. BTW, I'm all for combining stick and auto, realistically, it would be a wash across the board (better efficiency with the stick vs radials and ultra-light autos). More heads-up competition, but not over the top. Evan __________________ Evan Smith 1798 STK Last edited by Evan Smith; 10-14-2010 at 03:24 PM.

10-14-2010, 04:52 PM	#3
Dave Casey VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hampden, MA Posts: 1,202 Likes: 233 Liked 796 Times in 165 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. My Thoughts I don't want any new classes with one exception. Many new cars have a blower or turbo, these cars need to be in their own class. I don't believe it will ever be possible to factor these cars to run with non pressurized cars. Make a 7,8,and 9 lb blown/turbo class, combine sticks and autos together. If you are truly looking toward the future, this will help as all manufacturers have or will have these cars . Non pressurized(normally aspirated) cars should stay as is or eliminate a few classes. We just need the new cars to be factored better to begin with. Now that there are a host of underfactored cars, 2 things should happen. 1. review and raise some factors soon 2. Make the factoring system in place more aggressive two last points ,,,, I personally think our cars are plenty fast now, I would hate to see any wt breaks lower than 7 lbs/hp. We don't need purpose built factory cars that are not made for street use originally. Stop accepting them now. I know the ones already accepted are here to stay, but enough of it.There are plenty of good performance cars out there that would fit right in with this category __________________ Dave Casey 1330 STK

10-14-2010, 05:46 PM	#4
House of Darts Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 346 Likes: 19 Liked 20 Times in 15 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. How many posts have been devoted to the new cars? All the factory cars from the 60's have found their way into the "PROPER" class (more or less). I imagine that there were some GM and Ford racers that were pissed when Chrysler brought out their factory cars. Thank God that the BIG 3 have not decided to build smart cars. This a great opportunity to get the BIG3 and NHRA/IHRA to start posting $ for winning class. Higher payout by the BIG 3 for using their models and parts. More racers come out. More spectators come out. More cars are sold. And the saga continues. Crate motors are a great idea. Easing up on some of the blueprint specs/replacement parts is good too.If it gets easier to run S/SS, how about divisinals with just S/SS with 300 car counts. All done in 2 days.

10-18-2010, 05:18 PM	#5
NewHemi Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 472 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. I have agreed all along that the new cars need new classes. I had hoped that would happen before we even tracked our car. I also agree that the blown/huffercharged cars should be in their own class(es). And although it may surprise some, we new car owners are not horned devils who came out of under earth solely to wreck drag racing and stock classes. We are just like you were at some point when you bought a car to go racing. You picked something that looked good, or met your interest for some other reason, possibly even because it had some "advantage." I bought my car for no other reason than wanting a piece of history, and my first love was always drag racing, which I missed over much of my life due to being a responsible husband and father, so now at this point in my life, what better than being able to live a dream? I had no idea that the car would have an advantage. But it does. So because of that, am I supposed to just sell it? I don't think that is a good solution either. Rule changes are the only thing that will make anything better. I don't completely agree on a lot of the "proposed" changes, and admit to a personal bias. But I do certainly agree that something is needed. Then it is simply a question of what form the changes should take. If the form it takes, is something that drives the new cars into the garage permanently which seems to be the intent of some of the more radical suggestions, then that hardly seems very fair either. And to those who say that can't happen, look back to history. It has, it could, and if some have their way, it will happen again. As for those who argue that we just need to "fix the factors", I suggest that in fairness, and to make sure that the playing field is as level as possible, then the hp factors on ALL cars should be previewed and "fixed". If the older cars are not that out of line, the review shouldn't hurt them as much as it does the newer cars. A new group/set of classes, seems to be the most practical approach. I don't understand why us having a few new classes would upset anyone else's applecart, but it apparently does. David The New Hemi Guy Last edited by NewHemi; 10-18-2010 at 11:54 PM.

10-18-2010, 08:50 PM	#6
W J Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Paxton, Massachusetts Posts: 638 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. Well said, David. I won't speak for the CJ cars, but I'll say this regarding the DP Challengers: These cars, especially the motors, pretty much have to be completely taken apart, re-done, and more often than not, re-done a few more times to make them anywhere close to race ready, let alone competitively race ready. They are FAR from a race-ready car when purchased from Mopar. It's taking MUCH more work AND money by the buyers of these cars to bring out their potential...There surely is a place for the great new American Muscle...Re-class them, similar to what they've done w/the "H" Mopars, or whatever.....NHRA's holding this bag and it's up to them to straighten THEIR MESS out....some people here are putting the hate on the people who've bought and are racing these CJ and DP cars and it's surely not right.........put the squeeze on NHRA---where it belongs. Just my opinion of what's happened in Stock Eliminator this season.... Warren Lederer. WJ Last edited by W J; 10-18-2010 at 09:14 PM. Reason: add content....

10-20-2010, 12:07 PM	#7
Jack McCarthy VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: lyndon ky. ... louisville area Posts: 1,322 Likes: 29 Liked 477 Times in 117 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. ken offers a solution, maybe not perfect but he offers a solution... most just bitch. my idea is a A/B/C - FX classes that run outside of stock eliminator, heads up, finals on sunday ... when the cars get say 5 years old then they join us now that we have a good HP / POTENTIAL input from 5 years of heads ups !!! i think it adds excitement to nhra, oem and the fans are exposed to the old win on sunday sell on monday mantra ? jack and to those no heads up racers... find a bracket race ! __________________ Jack McCarthy 3609 STK "the Captain"

10-20-2010, 12:13 PM	#8
MikeFicacci Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 242 Likes: 1 Liked 19 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Stock and the late models, a solution. Taking the chance of getting yelled at by Ken, there is an awesome place for these cars to race. It's called NHRA Unleashed. For those of you who don't know, Unleashed is NHRA's answer to the NMRA/NMCA and is mainly heads-up racing directed towards the young crowd. Blowers, turbos, 2-feet tall intakes, and decent crowds in their 20's and 30's. This is actually the perfect place for these cars. __________________ Mike Ficacci Stk 1010