.90 questions from mars....

Chris "drooze" Wertman · 07-14-2010, 06:02 PM

.90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian.

I recently asked an established Super Gas team some questions I still just dont get......I take what they say as gospel and they are recent event winners and certainly not fly by the seat of their pants types. But I "JUST DONT GET IT" I have a reason for asking these questions so please bear with me, and any back and forth isnt argument its part of the way I think and Im trying to accuratley grasp why.

So if you see a "why not..." please explain....I may ask the absurd but Im still not 100% getting it.

Ok....Here goes....

Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem.

WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ?

Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90

Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along.

Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ?

It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ?

Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy.

Cheers

Chris

Chris Williams · 07-14-2010, 07:31 PM

People have tried all kinds of combinations over the years and have found that the most consistent is to go on the stop immediately after launch. You get a nice hard launch to get going, then immediately (say w/in a 0.1 seconds) you get on the stop. You're still accelerating, but at a rock solid consistent RPM, very repeatable.

If you go on the stop later, especially in low gear, the engine has so much power that it will "climb" (RPM going up) on the stop, pushing past your "dead stall" (desired RPM on the stop), and become wildly inconsistent. That's also why the bigger the HP the sooner you shift. We shift at 1.0 seconds because any later and the engine wants to climb on the stop.

The Super classes are all about consistency and repeatability. After lots of people have tried lots of things, it's been found that this works best.

sstSteveM · 07-14-2010, 09:08 PM

Drooze,

First off, if you are measuring wheel speed to operate the stop, that
is an illegal approach to the game, timers only can activate and de-activate the stop. As far as using the back half of the track for
delay, I ran with a friend with a setup like that and it worked fine, there are some rather well known champion racers who run like that as well. There is no limit to where and when you want to use the stop.
You see what you see because, well, even with a stop racers want
to go fast.
In a dragster, being able to see what is happening behind you
is rather tough.

-steve

Bill Baer · 07-14-2010, 09:35 PM

[QUOTE=Chris "drooze" Wertman;198290].90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian.

Ok....Here goes....

Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem.

WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ?

Answer: it's easier to see your opponet and judge the finish line if you have more MPH

Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90

Answer: Most super class cars can run one or more seconds under the index and it's difficult to scrub ET in high gear

Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along
Answer the more consistent your 60' time is the more consistent and predictable the car will be..

Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ?

Answer: well the electronic do make this possible

It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ?
Answer: Well if your 60' times vary you SOL and if you were on the stop in the last 1/8 the MPH would be down considerably and devices that "adjust on the fly" as Steve said are illegal

Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy.
again it comes down to consistency but getting the car on the stop early and shifting into high on the stop have proven to be the most consistent and provide the highest MPH

Personally I wish they would out law throttle stops we could use less motor, less MPH and be side by side like we were 15-20 years ago but I don't think that will ever happen again.

]

Chris "drooze" Wertman · 07-14-2010, 09:44 PM

Thanks, Both answers make sense in their own way now.

Rules was something I wondered about, not knowing them...well....wheel speed seemed like a very viable approach but I can see why it isnt, other than that rules are something Ill have to look into.

The reason I ask is there is a real good, (as in better than 50% chance) I am before the end of the week going to end up with a SG car. Why ? Well I need money...lol....to keep my personal stupidity habbits (marriage) going. So......I have an offer of cash plus a SG car for my 72 Challenger SS project......Its a nice car in trade, a very nice car, and other than a recert ready to race.....And its a Mopar

So for me and mine, personally for the rest of the season to finish out in that would be FUN, and something NEW and Just fine.

I guess I need to hook up with someone in person to setup and explain the ropes, IF I end up with it.

I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstSteveM

Drooze,

First off, if you are measuring wheel speed to operate the stop, that
is an illegal approach to the game, timers only can activate and de-activate the stop. As far as using the back half of the track for
delay, I ran with a friend with a setup like that and it worked fine, there are some rather well known champion racers who run like that as well. There is no limit to where and when you want to use the stop.
You see what you see because, well, even with a stop racers want
to go fast.
In a dragster, being able to see what is happening behind you
is rather tough.

-steve

Chris Williams · 07-14-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris "drooze" Wertman

I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?

If you hit packages less than 20 consistently (dial a .90x and hit the tree with something less than 0.010), you'll win a lot of super class races. The rest of us are human.

We dial a bit fast (say a .88) and get off the gas or on the brakes at the finish to take the stripe just by a little bit, hoping to scrub off the .02 we need to hit it perfectly. And if not, he broke out more, and you still win.

The idea of being able to see them ahead of you is to judge the stripe. Hard to do that when you're the slower car and they're coming up from behind you.

Bill Baer · 07-15-2010, 07:59 AM

"I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?"

Well in theory your absolutely correct, but in the real world your first 9.899 loss will educate you quite quickly that you need to drive both ends of the race track. Even the most consistent car is subject to variation in the racing surface and the difference between the lanes themselves.
Also don't forget that you need to get there first (most of the time) and if your reaction time isn't better that the other guy and he's wheeling you (i.e racing you not the clock) he doesn't need a 90 to take the stripe.

Chris "drooze" Wertman · 07-15-2010, 08:14 AM

Hmmmm....

I understand sort of.

But.....Ok no I dont, I understand the variation and the 9.899 breakout. But whos to say hes going to be any more correct than you.

And what confuses me is the desire to hang back then drive to the finish first this really has my head swimming.

And the RT i Understand.....that as someone else said, were mere mortals, are MOST .90 races decided soley by reaction time ? If they are that might explain some of my confusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Baer

"I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?"

Well in theory your absolutely correct, but in the real world your first 9.899 loss will educate you quite quickly that you need to drive both ends of the race track. Even the most consistent car is subject to variation in the racing surface and the difference between the lanes themselves.
Also don't forget that you need to get there first (most of the time) and if your reaction time isn't better that the other guy and he's wheeling you (i.e racing you not the clock) he doesn't need a 90 to take the stripe.

C and W Racing · 07-15-2010, 09:14 AM

The thing about .90 racing is a lot of decisions being made in a short amount of time. Most like to run big mph so that the race is playing out in front of us. We can see the opponent as well as the finish line. We are all human and we do miss the tree at times. What I try to do is WIN BY A LITTLE AND LOOSE BY A LOT. If we are racing and I am able to catch you before the finish line I will try to tighten the race up as much as I can, thinking I had a good light and I'm trying not to break out. If I feel like I can not catch you I will drive you as deep as I can and then get on the brakes before the finish line trying to break you out. If I can't catch you either that means I had a bad light or you are fast. Some times my car will just make a slow run and thats why I'm behind but most of the time it is running what I set it up to run. The reason I want to loose by a lot is look at how many double breakout races, the guy with the worst light wins because the other guy took too much stripe. When your car runs less mph it is much more difficult to be able to look back at your opponent and know where the stripe is
Thanks, Chuck

Chris "drooze" Wertman · 07-15-2010, 12:02 PM

Did you ever see FIght Club where Brad Pitt is being beaten by the Gangster and he saying do you get it now and Brad Pit is acting like wait, oh wait I ....nope....BAM...

Thats how I feel , maybe its from a 1000cc blood letting yesterday and my brain isnt up to snuff.....not that it is when I havent been bled, but Im gonna ruminate on this because Im thinking it must make sense it just dosent to me right now.

Thanks

Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by C and W Racing

The thing about .90 racing is a lot of decisions being made in a short amount of time. Most like to run big mph so that the race is playing out in front of us. We can see the opponent as well as the finish line. We are all human and we do miss the tree at times. What I try to do is WIN BY A LITTLE AND LOOSE BY A LOT. If we are racing and I am able to catch you before the finish line I will try to tighten the race up as much as I can, thinking I had a good light and I'm trying not to break out. If I feel like I can not catch you I will drive you as deep as I can and then get on the brakes before the finish line trying to break you out. If I can't catch you either that means I had a bad light or you are fast. Some times my car will just make a slow run and thats why I'm behind but most of the time it is running what I set it up to run. The reason I want to loose by a lot is look at how many double breakout races, the guy with the worst light wins because the other guy took too much stripe. When your car runs less mph it is much more difficult to be able to look back at your opponent and know where the stripe is
Thanks, Chuck

07-14-2010, 06:02 PM	#1
Chris "drooze" Wertman VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Barberton Ohio Posts: 1,114 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.90 questions from mars.... .90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian. I recently asked an established Super Gas team some questions I still just dont get......I take what they say as gospel and they are recent event winners and certainly not fly by the seat of their pants types. But I "JUST DONT GET IT" I have a reason for asking these questions so please bear with me, and any back and forth isnt argument its part of the way I think and Im trying to accuratley grasp why. So if you see a "why not..." please explain....I may ask the absurd but Im still not 100% getting it. Ok....Here goes.... Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem. WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ? Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90 Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along. Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ? It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ? Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy. Cheers Chris __________________ Chris "Drooze" Wertman 3132 (F/SA 2009 Challenger Drag Pak #24 with a best of 10.59)

07-14-2010, 07:31 PM	#2
Chris Williams Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Woodinville, WA Posts: 401 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .90 questions from mars.... People have tried all kinds of combinations over the years and have found that the most consistent is to go on the stop immediately after launch. You get a nice hard launch to get going, then immediately (say w/in a 0.1 seconds) you get on the stop. You're still accelerating, but at a rock solid consistent RPM, very repeatable. If you go on the stop later, especially in low gear, the engine has so much power that it will "climb" (RPM going up) on the stop, pushing past your "dead stall" (desired RPM on the stop), and become wildly inconsistent. That's also why the bigger the HP the sooner you shift. We shift at 1.0 seconds because any later and the engine wants to climb on the stop. The Super classes are all about consistency and repeatability. After lots of people have tried lots of things, it's been found that this works best. __________________ Chris Williams 6304 SC, TD, ET

07-14-2010, 09:08 PM	#3
sstSteveM Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 49 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .90 questions from mars.... Drooze, First off, if you are measuring wheel speed to operate the stop, that is an illegal approach to the game, timers only can activate and de-activate the stop. As far as using the back half of the track for delay, I ran with a friend with a setup like that and it worked fine, there are some rather well known champion racers who run like that as well. There is no limit to where and when you want to use the stop. You see what you see because, well, even with a stop racers want to go fast. In a dragster, being able to see what is happening behind you is rather tough. -steve

07-14-2010, 09:35 PM	#4
Bill Baer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Nothern IL Posts: 596 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: .90 questions from mars.... [QUOTE=Chris "drooze" Wertman;198290].90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian. Ok....Here goes.... Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem. WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ? Answer: it's easier to see your opponet and judge the finish line if you have more MPH Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90 Answer: Most super class cars can run one or more seconds under the index and it's difficult to scrub ET in high gear Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along Answer the more consistent your 60' time is the more consistent and predictable the car will be.. Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ? Answer: well the electronic do make this possible It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ? Answer: Well if your 60' times vary you SOL and if you were on the stop in the last 1/8 the MPH would be down considerably and devices that "adjust on the fly" as Steve said are illegal Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy. again it comes down to consistency but getting the car on the stop early and shifting into high on the stop have proven to be the most consistent and provide the highest MPH Personally I wish they would out law throttle stops we could use less motor, less MPH and be side by side like we were 15-20 years ago but I don't think that will ever happen again. ] __________________ Bill Baer 3391 SC, 339B SC, QR Last edited by Bill Baer; 07-14-2010 at 09:42 PM.

07-15-2010, 07:59 AM	#7
Bill Baer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Nothern IL Posts: 596 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: .90 questions from mars.... "I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?" Well in theory your absolutely correct, but in the real world your first 9.899 loss will educate you quite quickly that you need to drive both ends of the race track. Even the most consistent car is subject to variation in the racing surface and the difference between the lanes themselves. Also don't forget that you need to get there first (most of the time) and if your reaction time isn't better that the other guy and he's wheeling you (i.e racing you not the clock) he doesn't need a 90 to take the stripe. __________________ Bill Baer 3391 SC, 339B SC, QR Last edited by Bill Baer; 07-15-2010 at 08:03 AM.

07-15-2010, 09:14 AM	#9
C and W Racing Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 557 Likes: 6 Liked 13 Times in 3 Posts	Re: .90 questions from mars.... The thing about .90 racing is a lot of decisions being made in a short amount of time. Most like to run big mph so that the race is playing out in front of us. We can see the opponent as well as the finish line. We are all human and we do miss the tree at times. What I try to do is WIN BY A LITTLE AND LOOSE BY A LOT. If we are racing and I am able to catch you before the finish line I will try to tighten the race up as much as I can, thinking I had a good light and I'm trying not to break out. If I feel like I can not catch you I will drive you as deep as I can and then get on the brakes before the finish line trying to break you out. If I can't catch you either that means I had a bad light or you are fast. Some times my car will just make a slow run and thats why I'm behind but most of the time it is running what I set it up to run. The reason I want to loose by a lot is look at how many double breakout races, the guy with the worst light wins because the other guy took too much stripe. When your car runs less mph it is much more difficult to be able to look back at your opponent and know where the stripe is Thanks, Chuck