A/SA First in the 9.80's

[bill dedman]

Mark; that was then; this is now....
I don't have it in me (relax, Ed) to go down that bunny trail one more time.

After beating that horse to death, only to realize that I had done such a miserable job of explaining the facts, that even the drivers of "s-l-o-w" cars failed to see the value in a worse red light system, I moved on, bought a '64 Valiant and a slant 6 (30psi boosted turbo project,) wherein I may be the second to leave at my bracket track, sometime...

Outta gas in Arkensaw....

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Mark; that was then; this is now....
I don't have it in me (relax, Ed) to go down that bunny trail one more time.

After beating that horse to death, only to realize that I had done such a miserable job of explaining the facts, that even the drivers of "s-l-o-w" cars failed to see the value in a worse red light system, I moved on, bought a '64 Valiant and a slant 6 (30psi boosted turbo project,) wherein I may be the second to leave at my bracket track, sometime...

Outta gas in Arkensaw....

Matt Cramers montrosity ? (and I say that in a good way)

I mean how many 30lb boots 64 slant six valliants are there ...

[bill dedman]

Nope, Chris, I'm a little slow on the uptake; Matt is about ten years ahead of my home-brew project, but we'll get there. I am attempting to catch up, somewhat, by adhering to the K.I.S.S. policy with a 750 Holley, an MSD 7-AL and a 904 with a manual valve body.

MIGHT be up and running later this year... Talk's cheap; we'll see..... (You know the deal...) LOL!

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Nope, Chris, I'm a little slow on the uptake; Matt is about ten years ahead of my home-brew project, but we'll get there. I am attempting to catch up, somewhat, by adhering to the K.I.S.S. policy with a 750 Holley, an MSD 7-AL and a 904 with a manual valve body.

MIGHT be up and running later this year... Talk's cheap; we'll see..... (You know the deal...) LOL!

Hey I was gonna go with blow throughs on my 5.7 turbo for the 72 chally....

You outta see the size of the fan matts got now for that thing, I think I could rig it into a 100horse APU turbine with little effort....I mean I swear its a big diesel fan but its not.....Ill ask him what it is next time I talk to him....its stupid big.....but then again cooler air....so who knows.Looks like a good candiate to turn that slant 6 into keychain souvineers

Rock on...are you doing your own blow through conversion ?

[Mike Mans]

I rarely ever post on these boards, but this topic is just nuts. I understand people's frustration with fast combinations, but why does everyone complain instead of go work on their own stuff? If you are running a combination that has been beaten to death over the life of the car, i feel for you - but complaining will never make you fast again. It is absolutely ludicrous that everyone has been raising hell over the fact that Ford and Chrysler have played by the rules set forth in the NHRA rulebook and have purpose built cars within the guidelines to be competitive. Having factory involvement again Stock and Super Stock is a blessing and will hopefully keep our classes thriving into the future. Everyone in any class can be capable of winning, no matter how fast you are (as long as you can run the index obviously). It's not like the guys with the new cars are out here winning every event, so who cares how fast they go? I think you should all be impressed that a boat of a Drag Pak car with a 372 cubic inch motor with no power adders can outrun an old school 426 hemi with two carburetors!! Believe it or not, this is supposed to happen - it's evolution and progression. If a new performance car can't outrun an old performance car - the new one has some terrible engineering involved.

I know this has to be a generational thing, because I've heard the impressive story numerous times about how Ben Wenzel bought his 1967 Z-28 Camaro new, brought it to the racetrack and won the US Nationals with it in 1967. Now why can't someone go and buy a new Cobra Jet and come out and do the same thing without being harassed? If anyone wants to see Stock and Super Stock continue, there needs to be a progression with technology and reason to attract new, youthful drivers or it will be dead in 15 years. I don't have any demographic numbers, but when you walk through the staging lanes for Stock or Super Stock it's very evident that roughly 75% of these guys won't be heavily involved within the next 10 to 15 years simply because of their age! You guys hate seeing new cars come out strong, but when you were younger and used to go to your local racetrack - were you pumped to see a 32 Chevy make a run? No, you were all jacked up about your '67 Cobra Jets, '69 Camaros, '68 Hemi's etc... Those cars were all relatively new and high performance. Now why would a youthful guy/girl want to come out to a drag strip and watch a full class of 45 year old cars putt down the track? Nowadays people are educated on fuel injection and computers. A carburetor hasn't been on a factory car in 20 years!!! Just because many of you get frustrated on the new technology, doesn't mean it shouldn't be involved in present day class racing.

So many of you want a new class for all of the new factory race cars, well - how about NHRA just creates a class for you instead. Nostalgia Stock. Otherwise, get back to work on your car not your keyboard.

Mike Mans

*** This post was not meant to insult or criticize anyone with older generation cars, I truly am a fan of them and appreciate old school muscle and performance.

[Jack Matyas]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I rarely ever post on these boards, but this topic is just nuts. I understand people's frustration with fast combinations, but why does everyone complain instead of go work on their own stuff? If you are running a combination that has been beaten to death over the life of the car, i feel for you - but complaining will never make you fast again. It is absolutely ludicrous that everyone has been raising hell over the fact that Ford and Chrysler have played by the rules set forth in the NHRA rulebook and have purpose built cars within the guidelines to be competitive. Having factory involvement again Stock and Super Stock is a blessing and will hopefully keep our classes thriving into the future. Everyone in any class can be capable of winning, no matter how fast you are (as long as you can run the index obviously). It's not like the guys with the new cars are out here winning every event, so who cares how fast they go? I think you should all be impressed that a boat of a Drag Pak car with a 372 cubic inch motor with no power adders can outrun an old school 426 hemi with two carburetors!! Believe it or not, this is supposed to happen - it's evolution and progression. If a new performance car can't outrun an old performance car - the new one has some terrible engineering involved.

I know this has to be a generational thing, because I've heard the impressive story numerous times about how Ben Wenzel bought his 1967 Z-28 Camaro new, brought it to the racetrack and won the US Nationals with it in 1967. Now why can't someone go and buy a new Cobra Jet and come out and do the same thing without being harassed? If anyone wants to see Stock and Super Stock continue, there needs to be a progression with technology and reason to attract new, youthful drivers or it will be dead in 15 years. I don't have any demographic numbers, but when you walk through the staging lanes for Stock or Super Stock it's very evident that roughly 75% of these guys won't be heavily involved within the next 10 to 15 years simply because of their age! You guys hate seeing new cars come out strong, but when you were younger and used to go to your local racetrack - were you pumped to see a 32 Chevy make a run? No, you were all jacked up about your '67 Cobra Jets, '69 Camaros, '68 Hemi's etc... Those cars were all relatively new and high performance. Now why would a youthful guy/girl want to come out to a drag strip and watch a full class of 45 year old cars putt down the track? Nowadays people are educated on fuel injection and computers. A carburetor hasn't been on a factory car in 20 years!!! Just because many of you get frustrated on the new technology, doesn't mean it shouldn't be involved in present day class racing.

So many of you want a new class for all of the new factory race cars, well - how about NHRA just creates a class for you instead. Nostalgia Stock. Otherwise, get back to work on your car not your keyboard.

Mike Mans

*** This post was not meant to insult or criticize anyone with older generation cars, I truly am a fan of them and appreciate old school muscle and performance.

Mike -Very well written -- and thanks - now there are two of us that think this way.......

[Dave Ficacci]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I understand people's frustration with fast combinations, but why does everyone complain instead of go work on their own stuff?

Yeah, that's the answer... I need to work on my stuff more to run with the DPs and CJs... wtf?

It is absolutely ludicrous that everyone has been raising hell over the fact that Ford and Chrysler have played by the rules set forth in the NHRA rulebook and have purpose built cars within the guidelines to be competitive.

People aren't raising hell with Ford or Chrysler, its with NHRA who factors these cars. The fact that the 2010 CJ is 425 and the 08 is 439 is another F U from NHRA to everyone that runs in A or AA. 68-69 Camaros, Nova and Chevelles carry the same rating, so do 93-97 Camaros/Firebirds, 98-02 Camaros/Firebirds...Why are these cars rated differently?

Everyone in any class can be capable of winning, no matter how fast you are (as long as you can run the index obviously).

Until you run one heads up.

It's not like the guys with the new cars are out here winning every event, so who cares how fast they go?

People who run AA and A do.

Mike Mans

Mike,

I agree with everything you have said, except for what I have quoted above. The new cars are great for the sport, but not for those directly affected by their existence within their class.

For someone who has maybe 1 or 2 other SS/CS car at an event you enter other than Indy, your comments hold no substance with me . Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. You can probably count the total amount of heads up races you've had in CS over your career on 1 hand. While most anyone who runs in the same classes as these new cars have 5 heads up or so by mid season. This number will continue to go way up, and your winning percentage will go way down when you line up to one of these grossly under factored cars.

The problem right now might be small because there aren't that many out there.... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is not my idea of fun.

I guess I should go work on my stuff now...I know i have 3 tenths somewhere to catch these guys.

[Jack Matyas]

[QUOTE=Dave Ficacci;180106

Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. ....... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility.

Dave -- I feel your pain as I too lost earlier this year to a heads-up at a National event during the 4th round - but to an old car - so the roles were reversed . As for there being 10 of these at every event -- that may be a premature thought ..............and they won't all be in the same class if they did show up .

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Dave Ficacci

Mike,

I agree with everything you have said, except for what I have quoted above. The new cars are great for the sport, but not for those directly affected by their existence within their class.


I guess I should go work on my stuff now...I know i have 3 tenths somewhere to catch these guys.

Well Dave, to point 1....I would love to know (being the nosy DP guy I am what 10 cars will be on the track ?) Im serious....

To point two I was recently notified today of the cause for our failures the secret squirrels we ordered were trained in china and had counterfit SSQ tags affixed at the distributor. They have promised us a new batch of Secret Squirrels guarenteed to work, although not trained yet to correct my spelling. Let me know if you need any

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I know this has to be a generational thing, because I've heard the impressive story numerous times about how Ben Wenzel bought his 1967 Z-28 Camaro new, brought it to the racetrack and won the US Nationals with it in 1967.

So many of you want a new class for all of the new factory race cars, well - how about NHRA just creates a class for you instead. Nostalgia Stock. Otherwise, get back to work on your car not your keyboard.

Mike Mans

*** This post was not meant to insult or criticize anyone with older generation cars, I truly am a fan of them and appreciate old school muscle and performance.

Interesting parallel or comparison you attempt to draw there. But in 1967, you could go to the dealership and buy a new 1967 Z-28 Camaro and DRIVE it home. It had a VIN, emissions equipment, safety equipment, and there were 602 built. It was a regular production option, available to the general public, to drive on the street. The 302 was just a throw together piece Vince Piggins came up with to make the Camaro legal in SCCA Trans Am racing, it didn't even have a thing to do with drag racing. The car was not even a purpose built race car, drag race or not.

If we could get our car as fast as the fastest ones like it in the country, cars that have been thrashed for 30 years, it still wouldn't come close to the purpose built race cars. Care to tell us what we should do to it? We can't just go buy a different set of ported heads or a cam with more lift, or another intake, or the latest trick carburetor. So by all means tell us what we should do to our cars when we get back to the shop tomorrow.

For decades, the rules for Stock Eliminator were specifically written so that purpose built race cars were not legal. All sorts of cars were excluded, because they were not factory built production cars sold in quantity to the general public. For an easy and well known example, you can't race a 67 L-88 Corvette in Stock, because there were only 36 built and sold to the general public (word is there were others sold through back door channels to racers). But you can now race a car that was NEVER sold to the general public, never passed emissions, never had safety equipment, never had a VIN, and in fact couldn't even be driven away from the dealer.

The most basic rule for Stock Eliminator has completely changed. It changes the basic character of the class.

The thing is, this thing with the new cars isn't like anything in the past. People keep trying to act like it is, but it isn't. Because cars like this have never been legal for Stock. It doesn't matter how many times people try to say it is just like past history, it doesn't make it so.

And now, yet another person who never has to face one of these cars heads up feels compelled to come in and tell us all how we should all just smile and "take one for the team", and feel privileged to "do it for the good of the class".

And we keep hearing how good this is supposed to be for the sport. But I can't see how it's a good business model. I have yet to see a business just decide to mistreat its current customers in order to draw new customers, and be successful. It doesn't make sense. If you look at business, it generally costs about 2-3 times as much to gain a new customer as it does to keep an old customer. So I just can't see how telling a big percentage of long time customers to take a screwing and like it in order to draw a small number of new customers is a solid long term business model.

Another thing about those "new customers". If the only way to get those "new customers" is to give them some sort of ridiculous advantage over the current customers, how long will the "new customers" stay when someone else is given the same thing, and the "new customers" advantage is gone?

I don't have anything against the people who bought the new cars, it isn't their fault. NHRA opened up the rulebook and changed it, they didn't. They just took advantage of an opportunity they were given by NHRA.

NHRA has created a whole new precedent here. I wonder how happy people will be when NHRA decides to make another wholesale change that has a less than enjoyable effect on them. I wonder if it will still be so wonderful if a year or two from now NHRA decides to make these expensive new cars obsolete by letting in another ringer or two.