A/SA First in the 9.80's

[Larry Hill]

Mike Mans,

I worked most of yesterday on the flow bench and lathe (making test valves, you know changing back angle, stem radius, surface finish, and waist diameter) and picked maybe two to three HP. I do need help on finding the remaining 75 to 85 HP I need to make it a race in a heads up situation.

Breaks over back to work!

[Floyd Gomez]

Mr Larry check your PM's

[Mike Mans]

I totally understand what you're point is by getting beat by them - but look at how you got to this point. You are racing a 1969 Camaro. A 41 year old car that has had 41 years of horsepower added to it. It's been beaten up. I didn't do it, you probably didn't even do it - but your cars have taken a significant beating with time. Unfortunately the odds of power being taken off are slim to none. The factory race cars are brand new with factory support. They are trying to encourage people to build new race cars and have gotten horsepower factors approved at a certain number (you would know better than I) that may be lower than actually produced. But I guarantee you that in 1969 a 427 properly built in stock was "underrated." If Ford and Chrysler came out with a new Drag Pak and Cobra Jet cars with 500hp factors, nobody in their right mind would build one!

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out. I know that everyone on here will claim that they couldn't afford to build one of these new cars - or just may not want to for personal reasons. But if someone is going to build a new Stock DP/CJ it would cost them about the same as building one of the prestine and competitive muscle cars like yours or McClanahan's new ride. I guarantee the price tag differences aren't very far apart.

I hate losing in heads up races, and fortunately we were able to get into a class where as you've said - I don't run into heads up situations very often. But I assure you, we spend hundreds of hours a year making our car faster and building horsepower just in case we do find ourselves in that position. I know firsthand how much this stuff costs, we build all of our own motors and never stop trying new things. It's not easy.

I know it's a slightly different case, but a prime example is Jim Daniels. Ray Barton and those guys have breathed Hemi engines since their inception, but in the last year or two they've SIGNIFICANTLY picked up their program and are running TENTHS faster than they ever have. It can be done. I know it's time and money which we are all struggling to keep up with, but if you are set to run your 60's/70's muscle car - you're pockets have to get deeper. You are competing with teams of engineers at Ford and Mopar whose sole purpose is building efficient engines that crank out huge horsepower.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be a "better combination" and a guy with more money or time to put into it than what most have got. It sucks, but it's all part of the Stock / Super Stock classes and it hasn't changed.

[Andrew Hill]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out.

Remember that now it is more difficult to get horsepower. 15 hundredths harder to get looked at, and 15 hundredths harder to get automatic. I wonder what the LS1 and LT1s would be now if the indexes and horsepower triggers were changed when they came out.

[Dave Ficacci]

Originally Posted by Mike Mans

I totally understand what you're point is by getting beat by them - but look at how you got to this point. You are racing a 1969 Camaro. A 41 year old car that has had 41 years of horsepower added to it. It's been beaten up. I didn't do it, you probably didn't even do it - but your cars have taken a significant beating with time.

Beaten up or not, it's still a good combination. The combination was capable of running with any other AA A or B car in the country. That was taken away when these new cars arrived. It didnt take 41 years to get here, it took one piece of paper when someone wrote down 425 for the CJ and 390 for the DP.

Unfortunately the odds of power being taken off are slim to none. The factory race cars are brand new with factory support. They are trying to encourage people to build new race cars and have gotten horsepower factors approved at a certain number (you would know better than I) that may be lower than actually produced. But I guarantee you that in 1969 a 427 properly built in stock was "underrated." If Ford and Chrysler came out with a new Drag Pak and Cobra Jet cars with 500hp factors, nobody in their right mind would build one!

You are correct, a 500hp rating would be too high and no one would build it, but 425 is a joke... Ok, I understand they had to start somewhere. They proved the 425 rating was ridiculous last year, and yet they rate the 2010 at 425 again!

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out.

It took 15 years for it to work out. You would think they would have learned from their mistakes. Maybe they will add HP to these cars more aggressively. Only time will tell..but for now, this blows.

I hate losing in heads up races, and fortunately we were able to get into a class where as you've said - I don't run into heads up situations very often. But I assure you, we spend hundreds of hours a year making our car faster and building horsepower just in case we do find ourselves in that position. I know firsthand how much this stuff costs, we build all of our own motors and never stop trying new things. It's not easy.

No one said it was easy, nor did I say you didn't work hard. This is probably a lame comparison, but imagine NHRA came out and said, SS/BS cars and CS cars are now combined, but the BS cars only have to add 100 lbs to fit the new class. With the swipe of the pen your "fast" car is now mid pack. How would you like to hear from someone not in your class to tell you to "work on your stuff."

I know it's a slightly different case, but a prime example is Jim Daniels. Ray Barton and those guys have breathed Hemi engines since their inception, but in the last year or two they've SIGNIFICANTLY picked up their program and are running TENTHS faster than they ever have. It can be done. I know it's time and money which we are all struggling to keep up with, but if you are set to run your 60's/70's muscle car - you're pockets have to get deeper. You are competing with teams of engineers at Ford and Mopar whose sole purpose is building efficient engines that crank out huge horsepower.

Comparing SS/AH to stock is apples and oranges. Without custom heads and manifolds, picking up tenths (legally) in stock, doesn't happen.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be a "better combination" and a guy with more money or time to put into it than what most have got. It sucks, but it's all part of the Stock / Super Stock classes and it hasn't changed.

Absolutely true, but a "better combination" shouldn't be 3 tenths in front of everyone else out of the box. That's a "soft combination" that will only get faster once these guys start sorting them out.

---

[442OLDS]

Without custom heads and manifolds, picking up tenths (legally) in stock, doesn't happen.


VERY WELL SAID!


Maybe there is a "hidden" agenda here.All of the rules for the NHRA UNLEASHED PROGRAM are listed here:

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/u...0Unleashed.pdf


They all seem to allow NOS..........Hint!

[Ken Keir]

Originally Posted by Dave Ficacci

---

Dave I agree with you completely. Adam loves stock and superstock racing but most of all he likes heads up class racing. We are working to make our car faster but adam also knows that we are way behind the new cars. When we race a car heads up we would like to think that we have a fare chance.

Ken Keir
A/SA 1470

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

Mike Mans,

I worked most of yesterday on the flow bench and lathe (making test valves, you know changing back angle, stem radius, surface finish, and waist diameter) and picked maybe two to three HP. I do need help on finding the remaining 75 to 85 HP I need to make it a race in a heads up situation.

Breaks over back to work!

Larry.....Just port the heads like your competition and blast them with "Black Beauty" (acid isnt as good) to hide what you did. Use the rough grit. $35 worth of Black Beauty and 10-15 min. per head is all it takes. It works great on both alum. and cast iron heads and intake manfolds. Thats at least 1/2 of the HP min. your looking for on a 440/383 head. Dont forget to fill the heat riser with an old broken racing piston (Im sure you have a couple of those after the demise of your engine) to as close to the bowel area as you think you dare so the tech inspectors wont get upset. That alone picks up that one port close to 5%. If you dont believe its being done then Ive got a nice bridge I can sell you ! LOL